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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#141 Bader

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 10:51 AM

Do I detect a north v. south attitude creeping in Marq?
Can I suggest that perhaps Donq and myself tend towards trusting in humans because they in the main are positive and
cooperative and given the freedom necessary could develop
a better society. Has true democracy ever been allowed to
develop in the history of the world to allow this positive disposition to flourish?
On the other hand you other three tend to focus on humans
collectively as being not trust worthy to create freely a better society.
Lets look at the dilemma for this view. You asked Marq, who creates the governments, ideas and systems- humans do, you said. If they can't be trusted who will do these things? You have just excluded humans.
The absolute answer is holocaust. Get rid of all humans. I think we can all agree on that being out of the question. So the root
remains, in your argument. The next logical option is perhaps
a taliban who can dictate to the majority to keep the human nature under control. History is full of them. Which one would you chose to take up and try and improve on its poor record? This is a compromise because they will be human
experts, bureaucrats, aristocracy, monarchy, what-ever. How do you propose to allow them to control us and be trusted to be
nice once they have the power to do what they like?
I thought we were trying to escape common history not repeat it.
Can people ever agree on how to elect a superclass?
(It's not easy for anyone to cover this depth of ground in a forum
like this regardless of what starting point. )
The answer to your question about why the good models Donq.
has brought to our attention are not operating world wide is because of who runs the governments, policies and systems etc
especially those who control the money because nothing can be done without money. Control the money, law and politics- has
virtually everything tied up. They are a minority and they do have human nature, however they allow certain types of human nature to be seperated out from the rest eg societies imprison certain types because of unacceptable human behaviour, and not everyone because they also human. So lets determine what is
acceptable in business, finance, politics etc and start separating out the good human behaviour from the bad. I would tend to start from freeing up the good behaviour to allow better models
and starve the poorer examples of power as people vote freely with their feet. I would not start from state control/external laws that amount to big brother systems, we already have that, only the labels differ in spelling.
Thanks for the apolology Volt, may I reply in the same, I could learn to be more diplomatic. Who could fore-see the passion we
do indeed have. I do and I will challenge ideas and accept the same since what satisfaction can one have designing a plane that never gets off the ground and some say the best test of
anyones ideas is by their peers. At the same time it is not of
any interest to me to be personal or win- no prises are going to get handed out anyway and no scoreboard.
Another factor that comes into the debate is that there are different levels at which issues and points of interest are discussed and thus it isn't always appreciated what one may be really saying or think they are saying or perhaps clear and so a
wrong conclusion can be drawn.
I just had a reply on another thread from someone who said they had to re-assess me as they just realised my disposition wasn't as narrow as they had thought. Goodthings take time they say.
I'll come back to your last post Volt in a separate post. I haven't had time to go back to what you originally quoted Lenin. There is
actually a lot we have both said that hasn't been discussed yet
and you may not believe it but I would rather learn something new than argue about something old.
By the way if anyone has a book of Russian proverbs feel free to
share them.
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#142 donquijote

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 06:03 PM

We are discussing the future of the world and world is asleep... :)

Anyways, I keep emphasizing the pragmatics of the proposed change. Here's some info on the kibbutz...

PS: And I know Marquis is going to bring us some news from 'Natural Capitalism,' which he's reading at the moment. So we are going to have more elements for discussion pretty soon...

> That is why so many psycho-therapists and anthropologists have written
> on them.
>
> -Yissaskhar

Thank you, Yissaskhar. I think we--the world--can learn quite a bit
from the kibbutz in order to have some similar institution. It could
be an option among other more capitalist enterprises like the
industrial Mondragon--Basque Country--and the Danish farming coops.
Otherwise people should be able to work in 'maquiladoras,' if that
pleases them... OPTIONS IS BETTER!

Here's some interesting study--centered on the proposed changes--by
one of those sociologists...

Women in the Changing World of the Kibbutz
MICHAL PALGI
University of Haifa

The changes ultimately proposed in the kibbutz community were directed
for the most part at matters related to the work area, on the
assumption and expectation that through organizational means the
kibbutzim could deal more efficiently with the economic crisis. The
central office-holders proposed most of the changes in their
kibbutzim; other changes were proposed by outside management experts.
However, the female kibbutz members were not usually among those
proposing the changes, although most of these changes had a direct
affect on them.

1. The Shift in Domestic Assignments: The first change we shall assess
is the shift of several tasks which were formerly communal
responsibilities to the jurisdiction of the family. The process had
begun prior to the economic crisis, perhaps as a result of ideological
changes in the kibbutz, but accelerated during the crisis. Examples of
this shift include: a transition from children sleeping in the
communal children's houses to sleeping in their parents' houses; a
proposal to transfer breakfast and /or supper from the communal dining
room to the family house (already implemented in 37% of kibbutzim -
Getz, 1996); a proposal that the work of laundering and ironing items
of clothing should be done in the family house rather than by a
communal laundry service. It was claimed that in this way various
female kibbutz members would be freed from their work and could adopt
income-earning tasks.

The privatization process in the kibbutzim 'normalized' the kibbutz
family, turning it into a 'regular' household providing most of its
own consumption functions and services, including having the children
sleep in the parents' house. Findings indicate that from the woman's
point of view the implication was a greater investment of work hours
in the private sector, in the family house and a curtailment of hours
in the communal sector (Palgi, 1994). The abolition of extensive
branches of communal services such as the dining room, laundry, etc.
might place new stumbling blocks in place of the old in the path of a
woman aspiring to a career of her choice.

Changes in sleeping and eating arrangements were accompanied by the
allocation of consumption to the private budget rather than the
communal family budget. Privatization became the new by-word. The rate
of privatization differed in each kibbutz, but in 1992
particularization in most of the kibbutzim stood at over 40% of all
consumption expense, with respect to the kibbutz movement norm.

2a. Cutbacks in Staff and Streamlining of Services: the second
proposed change was directed to cutbacks of the workforce in education
and consumption services. Recommendations toward this end are to raise
the number of children in the care of each education worker, to pay
for various services, to open education centers and paid service to
people outside the kibbutz (88% of kibbutzim have already adopted this
proposal), and to employ people who are not kibbutz members in the
education area (approved by 55% of all kibbutzim - Getz, 1994). Until
recently, the employment of paid workers in early education was not
permitted. The intention was that as a result of these steps the
women's workplaces would be changed to profit centers, and the kibbutz
women would be free to choose careers or would move to the
'income-generating sector.'

2b. Surrender of the Principle of Self-Employment: A more strict
examination indicates changes in general structure, such as a
reduction in the agricultural workforce or the centralization of the
kibbutz elementary classes in regional schools, as well as changes in
the basic values of the kibbutz system. The principle of
'self-employemnt', which until recently was used, among other
principles, to restrict the incorporation of paid workers in
child-care and communal services, took on a new guise. In the past,
the meaning of self-employment was that kibbutz members would be
obligated to do jobs within the boundary of the kibbutz system if and
when a need arose for them, whether or not they were suited for them
or the jobs met their desires. Maintaining the principle of
self-employment contributed in some measure to a restriction in the
number of salaried employees in the kibbutz, and in large measure
prevented the replacement of female kibbutz members working in
child-care with salaried outside workers. This fundamental obstacle
was recently removed, and it was widely recognized that it was the
right of every man and woman to occupational fields of their own
choice, even when it was necessary to hire an employee for a position
not filled through staffing (Leviatan, 1995). As a result, more
salaried workers are employed today in production and services,
including the education system; in a parallel trend, more kibbutz
members are turning to outside employment. In 49% of kibbutzim hired
workers may be substituted for kibbutz members, and in 60% of
kibbutzim there as been a decision to encourage members to work
outside the kibbutz (Getz, 1996). This trend has not yet changed the
apportionment of work between the sexes in the kibbutz employment
system, although there is some expansion of opportunities for both
sexes for employment in non-traditional positions.

to be continued

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#143 donquijote

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 06:04 PM

continued...

3. Payment in Exchange for Public Activities: The third proposed
change is intended to increase the readiness of kibbutz members to
accept 'disagreeable' tasks in the kibbutz, through material
recompense. This change was put into effect in 5% of all kibbutzim
(Getz, 1996). In this case it was proposed to rethink the connection
between effort, skill and the type of task, and the giving of material
recompense to people according to these criteria - a connection that
most kibbutzim found objectionable in the past, and for which they
still show reluctance, given their existence as socialist communities.

4. Differential Recompense for Work: The profit term "consideration
for value" is understood as the granting of a non-equal monetary
reward for communal jobs and tasks within the employment structure of
the kibbutz. Until now all kibbutz members received identical
allowances without regard to the amount, type or quality of their
work. Various proposals for change in this area have been put into
effect, thus implementing certain proposals that vitiate equality
among members' allowances, and create differences in their standard of
living. One proposal concerns the creation of a connection between the
number of days of work a member puts in and the allowance received
(implemented in 11% of kibbutzim according to Getz, 1996). A second
proposal calls for giving a special recompense to those who undertake
disagreeable tasks (item 3 above). Another proposal concerns the
giving of a differential wage to members according to their work, or
at least the introduction of a differential component in the allowance
according to the contribution to the kibbutz; this proposal has been
implemented in 6% of kibbutzim (Getz, 1996).

5. Elimination of Rotation in Management Positions: The fifth proposed
change is the elimination of arbitrary rotation among successful
kibbutz work managers. 29% of all kibbutzim have decided to adopt this
proposal (Getz, 1996). Until recently, each manager was elected for a
term not exceeding 5 years. The rotation mechanism prevented the
creation of a powerful economic elite. When the economic crisis began,
there were those who believed that the cause of the crisis was buried
in the constant random rotation of the managers.

6. Transfer of Decision-Making to Experts: the sixth proposal is based
on the argument that it is appropriate that decision-making be
transferred into the hands of a smaller group of experts (59% of
kibbutzim have boards of directors in industry; 21% of kibbutzim have
boards of directors in agriculture; in 58% of kibbutzim there is an
economic directorate instead of a central committee), and that there
should be an elected directorate instead of the kibbutz general
assembly (26% of all kibbutzim decided on this change: Getz, 1996). In
fact, committees of experts had operated even in the past, but the
innovation is in the fact that it is now proposed to grant these
experts authority for decision-making, instead of the advisory
capacity they enjoyed previously. The background to these proposals
originated in the widepsread belief that the average kibbutz member is
no longer capable of keeping up with the complexities of modern
technology and economics. In addition, a position was maintained in
various debates that the failure of the kibbutz originated in
non-expert participation in decision-making. The proposal to cancel
the general assembly was founded on these apprehensions, and on the
realization that the number of participants in these meetings has
decreased.

7. "Separation between the Economy and the Community": this proposal
entailed the creation of two separate entities in the kibbutz: the
economic/production function and the consumption/communal function.
The economic/production funcion has autonomy to operate within the
boundaries set by the consumption/communal (23% of kibbutzim decided
on this change). The implications of this separation are two-fold:
control of the production branches is increasingly slipping away from
kibbutz members, and these branches are also becoming separated from
the service branches and central committees. The separation at once
restricts the amount of qualitative information flowing to the kibbutz
community, lessens the latter's ability to influence, and weakens the
overall social control. The severing of the connection between the
production sector and general community (the opportunity to
participate in information and decision-making) is likely to cause an
increase in the alienation of the members from their work, and a
reticence to invest in their jobs. Due to the particular lack of
qualifications in the economic area among women in the kibbutz, their
vulnerability is greater, and hence the feeling of frustration and
helplessness. And in all this there is a cost to the community.

Conclusion
It appears that several of the proposed changes indicate a movement
from relationships that are shared, mutual and non-mediated to
relationships that are hierarchical, formal and more indirect (see
items 5, 6 and 7 above). With other proposed changes there is an
apparent movement from shared, direct and diffuse relationships to
market relationships that are characteristically more specific,
profit-oriented and non-personal (see items 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7).

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#144 donquijote

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 06:54 PM

<6) I put in some notion of the d.m. in this thread about Russia's chances to become "number 1", because, in my understanding, people do not want to see what they want to see. Remember as I quoted Lenin ("Without solving the problem in general, we will not solve it in particular"; and "The truth cannot be abstract, the truth can be only concrete")?
So, people discuss all the same stuff all over again and again. Pretty simple and obvious stuff is being beslobbered eternally.
What I mean by thisf? Our petty or grievous and serious society problems.
The cause number 1 why we have social disastrous in modern world is a LIE.
It is not a technical problem to feed the hungry.
It is not a tech problem to find the weapons of mass destruction or distraction.
It is not an archiproblem to detect and render harmless terrorists.
It is not, yet, unachievable to build everybody a home.
But it is rather the unwillingness of people to agree, listen, unite, give freedom to other kind people. Lies penetrate everything. They are ubiquitous.
This is the main obstacle that we, people, put up on our way in the Universe. The lie is systematic, powerful, self-reproducing.>

Hi Volt

Let me give you some anecdote first that illustrates the issue of truth in modern--and ancient--society.

I gave a flyer--that contains the solution proposed here and the little stories posted elsewhere--to a couple of young, smart German guys, in front of the ocean.

The gist of the dialogue went on like this...

They: The powerboats are killing the manatees (the propellers chops them off).

(It shows they *were* concerned.)

I: Yeah, the real animals are the ones riding the power boats...

They: I don't know why this country doesn't do something about saving oil.

I: Something like "it's big business"...

They: This country is exercising its power...

(It shows it's only normal.)

The other guy finishes reading the flyer and says, "Too many truths, but I better give it back to you because I don't want to be caught with it by immigration. Anyways, he's got a copy."

(It shows we have to live with the lie.)

Truth is... hypocrisy is killing us as much as ignorance, and may be a major cause of violence. Of course, then we pretend to be "shocked" by violence...

Let me leave you with a couple of quotes...

"Nonviolence and truth (satya) are inseparable and presuppose one another. There is no god higher than truth" -Gandhi

"Violence does not and cannot exist by itself; it is invariably intertwined with the lie" -A.I. Solzhenitzyn
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#145 The Beat

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Posted 29 June 2003 - 07:03 PM

The cause number 1 why we have social disastrous in modern world is a LIE.
It is not a technical problem to feed the hungry.
It is not a tech problem to find the weapons of mass destruction or distraction.
It is not an archiproblem to detect and render harmless terrorists.
It is not, yet, unachievable to build everybody a home.
But it is rather the unwillingness of people to agree, listen, unite, give freedom to other kind people. Lies penetrate everything. They are ubiquitous.
This is the main obstacle that we, people, put up on our way in the Universe. The lie is systematic, powerful, self-reproducing

And this lie is killing hundreds in the Middle East every week on all sides.
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#146 Bader

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Posted 30 June 2003 - 09:30 AM

I had a good chuckle on that one, thanks Volt.

A post-conflict re-read was quite enjoyable. But Iam not surprised I expected there would be much to agree on once the air is cleared.
Mr Putin, not fully independant: I expect that (who is?) but I am
interested in seeing how he handles things as I would like to think there is great potential for Russia and world needs. But I would also expect behind the scenes he is in a three way game of chess or something similar.
I liked the personal touch re d.m. and it wouldn't surprise me if only 5% of students are interested in d.m. that would be typical of young people plus I would expect that would be about right regarding people interested in the what and why of what really goes on on planet earth, and are frustrated at the 95% who seem indifferent
or as has been mentioned- none so blind as those who don't want to see.
"truth cannot be abstract...." I agree whole heartedly.
Getting at the causes and the frustration at people going around
around in circles (repeating history even) are just as much my concern as yours. We are beaming in on diferent angles and
still interpreting each others messages yet.
The LIE being number one and all those common problems not being technical problems etc was excellent and has already
attracted a good response. It's been the number one problem for thousands of years. The tears of a Madonna statue (as an example ) you mentioned are merely the lie in one of many fields.
The division and confussion that keeps people mute and powerless serves the interests of those cheaters and liers whom you mentioned who usurp the power. And your point that to lie (mislead) or to stray from the truth/reality not only will fail to solve the problems but also complements the LIE.
I am a little intregued about certain knowledge being dangerous.
I think that may come up at some point.
I am one of those who only have an appreciation (negative) of d.m. in relation to ideology and that is very much tied up with
seeing how things work/originate and what effect they are
designed to play. So I only saw the dark side of the moon. You see the whole of the moon ( if I can mix in two hit songs)
I am no more interested in the capitalism v. communism thing than you. My point of interest wasn't them I merely used that
as a way of saying something.
Now that other saying of Lenin: without solving the problem in general, you won't solve it in particular. I wasn't going to
comment as I see it as ambiguous. I see two possible interpretations, one I agree with the other I strongly oppose.
But I found your interpretation in your "Summarizing"- I interpret
it as thus: the most simple and acceptable ideas which we can agree on, regarding our common and vital needs (issues) should be the basis (you called centralization) or hub around or upon which we can allow all kinds of freedoms for individuals as thus there should be no threat/conflict to the collective social entity
their culture (wider than mind and reason).
Magnificent! That's the interpretation I agree with. The opposite to people living outwards from values within (lore) is the external
regime encapsulating and enforcing from outside inwards towards people (law). The word l-i-v-e the opposite way round is e-v-i-l.
Did I get that second saying right? Could I make your class?
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#147 donquijote

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 06:00 PM

Hey, you are mighty quiet guys

The new poll on animalism is real good. I'm sure there are a few fans of Orwell out there...

PS: Here's some recycling from another group.

<Capitalism also encourages individual achievement. >

That's the good side of it (that's why nobody is proposing to ged rid of it), but the down side is that individualism, for example, encourages--or turns a blind eye towards--destruction of the environment and war. That's why we have to 'tame' it...

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#148 donquijote

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 06:52 PM

Hey Marquis

I just posted this at Natural Capitalism...

Cheap Gas=Unnatural Capitalism

Propose what you may, say what you want, scream if you will... Natural Capitalism won't happen because gas prices are low, real low. Actually they are subsidized so the 19th-century, SUV-friendly capitalism is kept in place...

Check it out...

http://www.natcap.or...d=391&groupId=4

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#149 vietnambob

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 07:32 PM

There were no real dragons left in Spain at that time.

And BTW DQ indifference about what?

I have a dream...

We shall overcome...

Theres the true story about the America of today.

Far far must less concern now than when Jr marched to Selma.

Right or wrong has been gone for years now.

I think the last time I saw it was when we 'whites' were wrong.

But now it's been totally replaced by the votes you can muster , what you give to get them, and not much else other than how you control the story told.

Tomorrow is a great day for us-our independence day. Those British and their double taxes with no dang representation even.

I always try to say the truth about things.

Mere double taxation would be a blessing these days.

I will be here tomorrow after the fireworks stop.
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#150 MarquisDeSade

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 03:51 PM

Originally posted by donquijote
Hey Marquis

I just posted this at Natural Capitalism...

Cheap Gas=Unnatural Capitalism

Propose what you may, say what you want, scream if you will... Natural Capitalism won't happen because gas prices are low, real low. Actually they are subsidized so the 19th-century, SUV-friendly capitalism is kept in place...

Check it out...

http://www.natcap.or...d=391&groupId=4

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yes yes, don. this is one reason of my pessimism. gas are so cheap and it's the most important commodity. unless we, human, are willing to make a hundred and eighty change - use eco-friendly vehicles - then natural capitalism do have some hopes. if not, the clouds is still there.it will not happen any near.
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#151 donquijote

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 07:08 PM

<There were no real dragons left in Spain at that time.>

I know, the mighty transnationals were created later. But wait, there was quite a bit evil back then too... :)

HOW CERVANTES WAS FOOLED

One day the Lie, which inhabits in the most unbelievable places such as the government and the pulpit, decided that such Don Quixote was a very dangerous enemy because many others could follow his example... This way in the famous occasion when the noble knight was about to attack the Bad Giants, the Lie revealed himself to Cervantes as windmills...

And that's how from then on more than one revolutionary was frustrated for fear of being called crazy...

<And BTW DQ indifference about what?>

About everything. Sometimes I hand out flyers saying, "Hey, something funny to read for peace" and many ignore it or worst bark at me. I think this kind of species is in power, the happy, caring people being at the bottom...

<I have a dream...

We shall overcome...

Theres the true story about the America of today.

Far far must less concern now than when Jr marched to Selma.

Right or wrong has been gone for years now.

I think the last time I saw it was when we 'whites' were wrong.>

I think whites represent perhaps the worst and the best of the species. Columbus brought the 'disease;' the environmental movements are overwhelmingly European.

It is said the worst genes came to the Americas...

<But now it's been totally replaced by the votes you can muster , what you give to get them, and not much else other than how you control the story told.>

"Karl Marx held that history is shaped by control of the means of production. In out time history is shaped by control of the means of communication" -Arthur Schlesinger, Jr.

<Tomorrow is a great day for us-our independence day. Those British and their double taxes with no dang representation even.

I always try to say the truth about things.

Mere double taxation would be a blessing these days.>

At least the British have accomplished something good with taxation: socialized medicine and an independent, cultural press (BBC).

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#152 The Beat

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 07:12 PM

And to quote Abraham Lincoln:

"Hi."
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#153 donquijote

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 07:15 PM

(Hey, I replied elsewhere. I think is better to keep it here.)

<Unfortunately Don,

Even Stalin started out with the best of intentions. A quite likeable chap to begin with, his ideals of a living Utopia were not too different to your own ideals. Ideals that I too wished were true, but let us face it. Too many around us are filled with greed, irregardless of what society, race, or religion that person may be born into.>

Hi Kostianovich

Well, Lenin had dropped Stalin as a successor...

Time and again we had the same problem: Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Castro, Chavez... The thing is, my dear friend, to avoid *anyone* taking power beyond control. The Swiss though hardly know who runs the central goverment.

<class background that even the best of intentions will never rid the world of. Yet when I ask those around me of similar birth to agree with me upon fundamental issues such as respecting the earth, respecting other's cultures, or the needlessness of wealth for happiness sake and almost every time they disagree to a man:
Most notably my brother (a builder), disagrees on environmental issues, his argument being that building more houses brings more work his way. My parents often argue until they are blue in the face that they are in no way bigotist in their views, then deign to throw in a comment such as "...except them pakies..." or however you spell it. And my friends all agree that it is wrong that we in the west should be so reliant on money to live, yet would never dream of turning down the odd bit of overtime... Why? Because it pays twice the rate. "But it is a holiday, should you not rest? Spend time with the family perhaps...?" The answer: No, they need the money.>

That's OK, my closest relative roars like a lion, though she's only a parrot. (I wrote a story based on that, for they cause damage nevertheless.)

The solution would be that as much as they can have their world, we can have our own. If they don't care about the environment and, say, ride an SUV, I want to be able to ride a bicycle and be reasonably safe in a bike lane. I don't want the lion to keep the lion share...

<Russia's problem is not exactly a new phenomenon but it is a little unique; The way forward is far simpler than Don's tempting dream. Russia's problem is that it is several melded societies unified under a common principal (communism), Now suffering from fragmentation and decentralization of effect. Moscow can no longer be deemed the heart, for it's heart lies fragmented across the land. Add to this Russia's planetarily unique situation and you find the problem is an uneviable catch 22 situation.

Russia's occupants tire of revolution and yet more; do not have the common ground on which it's people may form a popular opinion for change. The reason? Russia is still split on all counts, from those that desire to separate from the union to basic politics such as those that would welcome a return to communism and those that cry from democracy. Your governors and judges fight with each other; those thought corrupt argue against those deemed angelic and so the situation deteriorates.

As much as I love Mother Russia, I have yet to find the funds to visit and can only view it with a westerners eye; but what I see is a mish-mash of politics that can never coexist. Your country still holds dear to the more humane Stalinist principles while wanting the chance of an individually better life under capitalism. Let's face it. It is now time that the Russian people were brave enough to drop the pretence; only then will the land lift itself proud once more.

Those in favour of Democracy only pursue the ideal because of it's capitalistic possibilities. Those that pursue Liberty often write, resist and protest, but they must stop to evaluate themselves. To those of you who wish for greater riches, I say this; help change the financial infrastructure and thus earn your own rewards. To yet others who wish for liberty I say; communism already grants you that, providing it is done properly... Without knowing it, the swiss system of referendums is far more Communistic in it's ideals than any so called actual Communist government ever has been.>

Russia's problem is the same as anyone elses... the *lie*, she having paid a heavier price than most. I don't see a catch 22 in the case of Russia: Capitalism is as bad for her as communism. She can go the safest way: PRAGMATICS, whatever works for Curitiba works for Moscow, and whatever works for Switzerland should work for Russia...

<Stalin's initial ideals, like Don's are views that I too share in part, but it is much easier to change government, than it is to face up to ones own true intentions. Only when we see all the faults within ourselves can we begin to put right the world.>

Maybe part of our personal problems are part of social problems, at least that's my case... When you, say, are earnestly and honestly looking for a job but there's no demand for your input, you can only put it into change. If there was a kibbutz style coop where I live, I'd gladly join it. Sadly, competition is the law of the land. The lion wins...

<Here's to Eutopia one step at a time,>

Sometimes change gathers momentum, like it did at the last coup attempt in Russia.

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#154 The Beat

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 07:21 PM

Oye, gran jefe de la selva,

Nadie me dijo que no tengo derecho escribir aqui. Si las leyes se han cambiado, hay que decirlo, no?
Sino, con todo gusto voy a seguir escribiendo, con o sin tu permiso.
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#155 donquijote

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 07:35 PM

<Oye, gran jefe de la selva,

Nadie me dijo que no tengo derecho escribir aqui. Si las leyes se han cambiado, hay que decirlo, no?
Sino, con todo gusto voy a seguir escribiendo, con o sin tu permiso. >

Listen, great chief of the jungle,

Nobody said to me that I do not have right write here. If the laws have changed, is it necessary to say it, no?
But, with all taste I am going to continue writing, with or without your permission.

I translated it with the automatic translator--a free service from my webpage:)--and then touched it up.

Who great chief be? :)
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#156 The Beat

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 07:42 PM

Your automatic translator needs some help,

"Nobody said to me that I do not have right write here"

VERY POOR ENGLISH!!

Nobody said to me that I do not have <the> right <to> write here.

MUCH BETTER ENGLISH.

"If the laws have changed, is it necessary to say it, no?"

VERY POOR ENGLISH

If the laws have changed, that needs to be stated, doesn't it?

MUCH BETTER ENGLISH


"But, with all taste I am going to continue writing, with or without your permission."

VERY POOR ENGLISH

If not, I will continue to write with great pleasure, with or without your permission.

MUCH BETTER ENGLISH

I'd take your web translator and throw it in the drink if I were you.
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#157 donquijote

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 08:21 PM

<I'd take your web translator and throw it in the drink if I were you. >

You can't deny is very quick...:o
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#158 The Beat

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 08:31 PM

Need a pronoun, bro'

"it's very quick" otherwise it doesn't work.

I know, in Spanish the pronoun (the substantive) is optional most of the time, but not in English.

Anyway, back to the thread.

Russia has a lot of what it takes to be #1, but I think the first thing they have to do is take care of their tattered international image.

Clear up that Chechnya thing. I don't pretend to know what the right answer is, I've never been there and I don't know anyone vaguely familiar with the issues, but I can say that it is a blight on the Russian image.

Start touting Russian advantages to international investors. The US has been doing this for years, and it has worked! Even in the 1980s when Japan was on the verge of overtaking the US economy, where were they spending their money (much of it, okay, not all of it)? In the US!!!

They were buying up golf courses, hotels, etc. Putting our money right back into our country!!

Show what Russia has that will attract investors, i.e., money grabbing barons that only look at ............. okay enough diatribe. They are the ones who spend the billions so that your government can recuperate millions so that you can pay your workers in the thousands. Works every time.

The Bill Gates of the world will exist as long as free enterprise exists. DEAL WITH IT!!
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#159 donquijote

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 08:43 PM

OK, Beat, here's another automatic...

THE BLACK SHEEP

In a distant country a Black Sheep existed many years ago.

She was shot.

One century later, the remorseful herd raised an equestrian statue that stayed very well in the park.

This way, in the future, whenever more black sheeps appeared they were rapidly executed in order that the future generations of common and mundane sheeps could also exercise in the sculpture.

(This story was written by Augusto Monterroso, and this is his most famous story. Of course, any resemblance with Jesus, Lenin, Gandhi, King and others is *not* pure coincidence.) :)

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#160 The Beat

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 08:49 PM

Sorry,

I'm lost.

We're exercising in the sculpture after rapidly executing black sheep.

I think you're trying to say that the odd ball is a marked person.

Ya know, I was the black sheep of my family. And look at me, I post on Pravda's forum forty years later.

Not such a big thrill, huh?

oh, well.
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