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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#1681 donquijote

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Posted 20 December 2003 - 05:59 PM

<SAVIOR. >

I know GI, it must have a terrible blow to you the fact of the latest act of kindness toward the Lybian Lion. Nothing is what it seems. Even the honest lions must feel betrayed...;)

>"Bob Weigel" <soundodoctorin@mfire.com> wrote

> > OK, and the same goes for the "communists" that were not communists,
>
> ABBBSOLUTELY! Yes, you agree...so now you have to retract a bunch of crap
> you said. Ok we've got that nailed down. Now...what is a 'communist'? The
> early church in Acts shared all things in common and were by definition
> communist! In fact, it's the only account in history where communism has
> actually worked :-) Hehhee. I'm a communist by the way. Mao and Stalin
> weren't. They were greedy *******s who took advantage of an idealistic
> teaching to perpetuate themselves to positions of dictatorship. Right?
> Duh. again. That's quite obvious from the path they walked. IF they had
> been true communists, they would have not been dictators. You can't be both
> :-). You're either a person sharing in common with others (a communist...)
> or you are a dictator killing those who want to draw you closer to that
> position.

OK Bob, you are the one that proves me right. Your "communism" sounds
more Christian to me than the other so called "Christians." Someone
even condemned both Gandhi and Martin Luther King for having followed
Jesus' nonviolent way. They look to me more like fitting in the Roman
Legions...
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#1682 donquijote

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Posted 20 December 2003 - 06:54 PM

>"Bob Weigel" <soundodoctorin@mfire.com> wrote
> > OK Bob, you are the one that proves me right. Your "communism" sounds
> > more Christian to me than the other so called "Christians." Someone
> > even condemned both Gandhi and Martin Luther King for having followed
> > Jesus' nonviolent way. They look to me more like fitting in the Roman
> > Legions...
>
> Not sure what you mean there. I mentioned that Ghandi (isn't that the
> correct spelling? It's been a while..) hung onto an ideal; non-violence.
> It....got a bunch of people killed and did little to turn around violence I
> think we agreed. The killers said "Look, a bunch of weak people who are in
> our way. TO THE SLAUGHTER!". Wow. That made a big impact.

Bob, I don't know who said that stuff about Gandhi above but if you
question him from an strategic viewpoint I may be forced to agree
you--he should have created 500 million Gandhis, in which case he both
may have saved his own life and his cause would have survived. Anyways
he did what he could. He may not have had the truth but he was damn
close! However MORALLY, I don't think any Christian worth it of the
name could question him. Although he said something like, "I like your
Christ but not your Christians..."

Gandhi tried to do what Jesus did. They both sponsored a good cause
which, but they had some unintended consequences. Everyday people kill
each other in the name of "God." Not only I'm talking about Christian
vs. Muslim rivality but Christian vs. Christian as it is the case in
Northern Ireland.

> On the other hand, COMPARE AND CONTRAST how men like Stephen died. He
> had people tearing their clothes in anger because he utterly crushed their
> philosophy like a cheap pop can. A chapter in acts is devoted to the event
> and recites what he told the leaders who were accusing him and he gave a
> powerful answer that totally undercut their whole foundation! Paul was
> partly brought to his senses through that Martyr.
> Ghandi didn't really do anything of comparable nature I'm aware of.
> Probably...because he didn't have the ultimate underlying truth in his
> cause. ONLY a superficial pseudo-solution. Through the process of charisma
> he exercised over time he was able to amass a following. HOwever..let's
> look at the underlying foundation of his philosophy through this
> hypothetical conversation..:
>

[A few comments follow]

> Ghandi: Be non-violent
> Other: Why?
> Ghandi: Because in doing so you will bring ultimate peace

[And yet it happens that nonviolence is the only approach that can
save us now. No WMD, no terrorism, no State...can save us]

> Other:..uhhh..yeah. Like I'll have peace in the grave you mean when these
> people kill me?
> Ghandi: No, you will bring peace to the world through your example
> Other: But...I've seen people die and not put up a fight and the killers had
> no remorse and just went on killing.....

[I know but if you do put up an armed resistance the Lion (the Powers
that be) has an excuse to crack down on you. In the case of him
cracking down on the nonviolent activist though, the 'beast' would be
exposed, leaving him vulnerable, as it was in the case of Christ.]

> it seems to me more reasonable to think that MAYBE killing the
> killer instead would serve to deter other
> people from killling...since I think people FEAR being killed MUCH
> more than they respect people who smile
> while you murder them.
> Ghandi: ......hmm. Wish I'd thought of that sooner....ok...try this
> theory on for size....

[When someone uses violence on your oppressor in order to save you he
may end up as your tormentor. It happened many times in history:
Russia, Cuba...]

>
> hehe. Sorry..I should have used some animals in that illustration so
> you'd relate I know. :-) But hopefully you can get the picture anyway of
> what I'm trying to say. Human reasoning rarely works. There are indicators
> that violence or non-violence might be better in certain circumstances if
> one's goal is to bring peace.
> For example...let's take a couple hypothetical's. Situation one.
> You've got a petty dictator torturing people. He's a psychopath and enjoys
> it. While the Ghandi in you is saying 'Just smile nicely at him and you
> will win him by your kindness', the Rambo in you says 'how am I stupposed to
> stand by while he tortures these helpless people. Pass me the rocket
> launcher and long range rifle. " If the Ghandi in you wins over, the guy
> tortures people til he dies probably. The significance of one smiling
> person to a person who has NO CONSCIENCE is NIL! VOID! If the Rambo wins
> out, you probably save a lot of people from being tortured and killed...at
> the cost of one guy who had no conscience. Bravo for Rambo! He brought
> peace....where Ghandi brought NO peace...except maybe to his own lazy ***.
> On the other hand, take the case where you have someone who has a
> conscience. Only the spirit can discern this. In this case God might work
> through peacefully approaching such a person in similiar circumstances.
> Rambo might go in and find that he's blown up a guy for who there was hope
> and the whole country might turn on him because they're the one's with no
> conscience :) Who knows. Ya 'learn to discern or get burned' as a song of
> mine puts it. Only the spirit can lead us in truth. We are blinded to
> know what to do without him. -Bob

We gotta learn from the Jungle, Bob. Never dress like a lion to beat a
lion... ;)

THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE

Once upon a time, in the deep jungle, lived a Lion and a Monkey... One
day the Monkey, tired of the Lion always getting the lion share, and
seeing that such injustice represented a danger to all the species of
the jungle, demanded justice... The Lion, yawning and stretching,
said: "You would have to have paws and sharp teeth..." Then the
Monkey, who was very clever, devised a plan: He would go to the
costume store, and look like a lion...

When the Lion saw him, noticing that the new lion wasn't a match for
him, and fearing competition, killed him on the spot --before the
indifferent look of the little animals of the jungle... And that's how
the Law of the Jungle was re-established one more time...

NOTE: Other monkeys survived him...

THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE II

After killing the monkey dressed as a lion, the Lion gathered all the
little animals of the jungle and announced: "Today we have
successfully eradicated one of the major threats to the peace and
order of our jungle... Yes, a new lion, probably envious of us,
attacked without warning... Luckily --because you know how good is
suffering for the spirit-- your sacrifice gave me strong paws and
teeth... And yes, these mighty weapons were so useful to me that I
finished him off without a sweat... Anyhow, now it turns out that some
other of his accomplices are roaming around and trying to attack us...
So get ready for more suffering and restrictions, if not for a
catastrophe... But, of course, there's a place for you in heaven..."

Meanwhile, one of the little animals --who had been grazing all
along-- asked another: "What did he say?" "I think he said something
about a new lion," answered the other. To which the first animal
replied: "Another one!?"

Moral: We don't need lions or violent monkeys that become lions. No
Lion No Problem!

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote
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#1683 Bader

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Posted 20 December 2003 - 08:32 PM

It is amazing how many points of view try to use something
associated with Jesus to gain some leverage or legitimacy to
some label or notion that are unchristian. like kissing some exalted persons feet
for a favour on the one hand and doing just what many cults have done by taking scripture out of context to steal sheep.

Communism is a political entity. Not only were the early church non- political just as Jesus a non-political person no matter how much one tries to twist it, the community of christians were only a minority of one city, not the city or state that one should even consider the word communism.
It is obvious the conclusion being propelled is more important than intelligent premises on which it is supposedly based.

Meaning there is an alterior motive.

One could consider the word commune, which is political-less society on a small scale. But I dont think that is the case either
because they didnt live in the same location. There is no evidence that they sold their houses and moved to a lifestyle block or built their own suburb.
There are plenty of cities in the world with a latin, Greek, Italian,Chinese dominated areas with their own native tongue
newspapers etc, pooling finances to get etnic businesses up and running, yet no one calls them communist quarters.

How many books has one seen trying to debunk or re-interpret
away from their own contexts towards something foreign, regards
any other religion or their cannonised books than the Old and New Testaments?

Its the tall poppy syndrome, this political ideology
of communism (order based on sameness-which Bush has adopted) will dictate in the world religion being formed as part of world govt. Non-conformers will be haters or terrorists.
We have heard several times over how Russian communism failed because of it was distorted/corrupted but what else can one expect when by decree all apples good and bad must go into the same barrel. The end result is compost and smelly at that.
In a more open society the birds of a feather flock together,
making the rotten apples segregated from the better ones and time will show people where values are.
Today the whole world is corrupt but where (religion orientated)
are the nations trying to flock to- Hindu, Muslim, confucian etc
societies for the better fruit that time has produced?
Yet people still insist on changing the christian influenced society to be more like the others are. Even Jews prefer to live there than in their own country.
It reminds me of city people who move to the country side and take the city with them.
Political interferrence in religion brings disaster.
Constantine made all the same by making christianity the state religion. The pagans and their religions simply changed their labels kept their traditions and holidays etc and became christian priests. The Babylonian Queen of heaven and her male child became the Madona and baby Jesus. Christains the world over
honour pagan holidays and the Pope's title is the old pagan emperors and lookhow many millions of christians and jews have been murdered as a result down through history. And the Lions historians say that christians persecuted the jews!
We reap what we sow. So lets stop making corrupt hybrid seeds by crossbreeding till all are the same based on the lowest
demininator while talking as though we are trying to lift ourselves up by the bootstraps.
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#1684 donquijote

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Posted 22 December 2003 - 05:24 PM

<It is amazing how many points of view try to use something
associated with Jesus to gain some leverage or legitimacy to
some label or notion that are unchristian. like kissing some exalted persons feet
for a favour on the one hand and doing just what many cults have done by taking scripture out of context to steal sheep.>

Howdy Bader
Perhaps we should turn it around and say what Christ was NOT: He wasn't for the rich and famous. He didn't behave like one, he didn't speak kindly of them. So we must conclude that America wouldn't have been his favorite nation more than Rome was...;)

<Its the tall poppy syndrome, this political ideology
of communism (order based on sameness-which Bush has adopted) will dictate in the world religion being formed as part of world govt. Non-conformers will be haters or terrorists.
We have heard several times over how Russian communism failed because of it was distorted/corrupted but what else can one expect when by decree all apples good and bad must go into the same barrel. The end result is compost and smelly at that.
In a more open society the birds of a feather flock together,
making the rotten apples segregated from the better ones and time will show people where values are.>

Some even claim "communism" was a form of religion, requiring tons of faith and worship. Now the question is, "Do communism and religion both require the existance of the herd?"

We do agree however that "in a more open society the birds of a feather flock together" separating the lions from the sheep and the free birds from the sheep...;) In other words there gotta be room for the 'tamed lion' (as pictured in Paradise), the cooperative little animals and the people who don't fit in either role...:cool:
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#1685 GIJOE

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 12:03 AM

Comedic, to say the least.
To try to assert that all that have riches and worldly things are bad, in the name of Christ, is mythical.
Christ had certain things most people of his time did not posess.
He also felt that those that excelled, should be rewarded on this earth as well in heaven.
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#1686 Bader

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 07:37 AM

I agree with GIJ.
I have responded to the rich attitudinal thing previously, although it may have been on another thread, but I think it was this one.
He wouldnt have been buried (three days) in a rich mans burial tomb if it would have been an afront and none of the immediate family or disciples objected. The dear friend he raised from the dead was well to do as I saw it. When a very young child three men from the East brought him gifts fit for a king which the "stars" said had been born in the land of Israel. There is more which would merely confirm GIJ.

Herds: communism was rated the equivalent of a religion.
I came across an article a few days ago which argued on the same basis that environmentalists have made a religion out of their interest. The intro covered the fact that there is a dimension within the human that requires a belief/hope/faith
that came be occupied shall we say by many things.
A brand needs a herd like a business needs customers/client base and a large part for the same reason. There are political brands and religious brands and once they start to form structures and especially buy buildings they then need a funding sourse and the best supply of funds is a herd. Its done via tv even!
There is another side and that is the individual generally tends to
like to see the brand they chose as a popular and successful one
and so in both politics and religion they try to sell it and defend it against critics. Buy a car and we do the same.
But there is no salvation/hope in a brand, the safety in numbers thing is limited to this dimension- physical life. Take Abraham who it could be argued (but not by me) is the father of three religions two of whom are numbered in billions yet he never issued or gave any inclination towards a brand least of all a racial one. He merely exhibited personal faith in God himself which is why God changed his name and likewise Jacobs to Israel.
The true descendants of Israel (Israelites) according to scripture
are sons of faith (of/as Abraham) not sons of the flesh. Abraham means father of nations. Abraham wasn't a Jew! No brand here.
This is related to why some of the Torah people scorn the zionists for stealing the name Israel and the land which they have no right to.
There have been some quite outstanding religious men but the society of followers almost without exception form a brand in the end and mortify into tombstones long after the reformer had died.
In the last couple of decades there has been a big trend towards
house groups which are small, not impersonal, caring, alive and unstructured and of course no financial baggage like a mortgage
or salaries and no brand/herd. More like a coop DonQ, which is how I suspect the first Christians were. They were referred to, having no brand, as the people of the Way, before the name christian came into being.
Hey how about no brand no Lion. The lion cant get a grip on small unstructured groups, ask the Rev. Bin Laden. Nar he has a brand! One follower becomes a herd of a million pieces.
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#1687 GIJOE

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 04:50 PM

No brands, best post of the week.
Bader makes the point crystal clear. During the life of Jesus, there was no brand on his followers, no brand on his form of religious teachings.
Baders explanations of branding is on the money.
The herd mentality, is one of the reasons for the creation of brands, titles, and various clubs that call themselves religious establishments.
Yes during the short but amazing life of Christ here on earth, small groups of believers bonded together, without formal names
like, Catholic, Bapist,Methodist, ect ect ect.
These established faiths, were never advocated by anyone. much less Christ or his followers at the time.
I am not advocating the end of all organized religion, but I am certain we can all pray anywhere anytime and be heard just as loudly as those in a giant cathederal, or a small chapel.
The very stars above us are our church.
And the heavens are our ceiling.
As i sit here at this computer, I can say a prayer for all those, who have had the tolerance to converse with me.
Somethimes agreeable, other times rowdy and aggressive.
still in communication, still building the bridge to understanding of one another.

joe
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#1688 donquijote

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 10:22 PM

<Comedic, to say the least.
To try to assert that all that have riches and worldly things are bad, in the name of Christ, is mythical.
Christ had certain things most people of his time did not posess.
He also felt that those that excelled, should be rewarded on this earth as well in heaven. >

The fact that America self proclaims to be "blessed by God" hold no more ground than Rome claiming to be "Christian" after Emperor Constantine. If you can tell me though what other attributes America got--besides power--to make her worth it of such a high claim, I may see the light.

Do you mean that the laid-back Caribbean population don't get any rewards? I still want to live there...;)
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#1689 donquijote

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 10:46 PM

<I agree with GIJ.
I have responded to the rich attitudinal thing previously, although it may have been on another thread, but I think it was this one.
He wouldnt have been buried (three days) in a rich mans burial tomb if it would have been an afront and none of the immediate family or disciples objected. The dear friend he raised from the dead was well to do as I saw it. When a very young child three men from the East brought him gifts fit for a king which the "stars" said had been born in the land of Israel. There is more which would merely confirm GIJ.>

Howdy Bader
GI claims that "success" (read "material," the only important one in America) in life makes earn "rewards," but no importance is given to the wellbeing of millions--or billions--around the world. Just f*** them. Too bad, they ain't chosen, they ain't spoken about. Out of sight out mind. Even in America thousands of homeless people roam our streets and occupy our parks, but still "America is #1." Funny...;)

<More like a coop DonQ, which is how I suspect the first Christians were.>

Not only the first Christians were cooperative. The concept was carried out 1700 years later, and, of course, the lion crushed them once again. The hungry stupid lion doesn't want *competition* so it must destroy the cooperative little animals. The little animals must tolerate the lion but the lion doesn't tolerate them!!!

Reductions of Paraguay

'The economic basis was a sort of communism, which, however differed materially from the modern system which bears the same name, and was essentially theocratic. "The Jesuits", writes Gelpi y Ferro, "realized in their Christian commonwealth all that is good and nothing that is bad in the plans of modern Socialists and Communists."'

The Jesuit Reductions of Paraguay, one of the most singular and beautiful creations of Catholic missionary activity, have contributed more than any other factor to fix the name of Paraguay in history. They have been the object alike of the most sincere admiration and the bitterest criticism. An exact account, based on the best sources, should be their best justification.

(snip)

(1) Conditions of Property

The economic basis was a sort of communism, which, however differed materially from the modern system which bears the same name, and was essentially theocratic. "The Jesuits", writes Gelpi y Ferro, "realized in their Christian commonwealth all that is good and nothing that is bad in the plans of modern Socialists and Communists." The land and all that stood upon it was the property of the community. The land was apportioned among the caciques, who allotted it to the families under them. Agricultural instruments and draught-cattle were loaned from the common supply. No one was permitted to sell his plot of land or his house, called abamba, i.e. "own possession." The individual efforts of the Indians, owing to their indolence, soon proved to be inadequate, whereupon separate plots were set aside as common fields, called Tupamba, i. e. "God's property" which were cultivated by common labour under the guidance of the Padres. The products of these fields were placed in the common storehouse, and were used partly for the support of the poor, the sick, widows, orphans, Church Indians, etc., partly as seed for the next year, partly as reserve supply for unforeseen contingencies, and also as a medium of exchange for European goods and for taxes (see below). The yield of the private fields and of private effort became the absolute property of the Indians, and was credited to them individually in the common barter transactions, so that each received in exchange the goods he desired. Those abamba plots which gave a smaller yield because of faulty individual management were exchanged from time to time. The herds of livestock were also common property. The caballos del Santo, which were used in processions on festal occasions, were especially reserved. Thus the Reduction Los Santos Apostoles at one time owned 599 of these.

(2) Products

The Indians themselves were content for their needs, with the cultivation of maLe, manioc, various indigenous tuberous plants and vegetables, and a little cotton. But the work conducted by the communities continued constantly to assume larger proportions, and surpassed by far the work of the Spanish colonies, both in regard to the variety of the products and to rational cultivation. Besides the common cereals (wheat and rice were grown scarcely anywhere outside of the Reductions) and field produce, tobacco, indigo, sugarcane, and above all, cotton were cultivated. Much care was devoted also to fruit culture, and that successfully. Even today one may find in the wilderness traces of former splendid orchards, particularly orange groves. Vine culture was attempted, but with only moderate success.

One of the most important products of the territory comprised by the Reductions was the so-called Paraguay tea (herba), which is still the largest article of export of the country. It consisted of dried leaves of the mat? tree (Ilex Paraguayensis), crushed and slightly roasted, and drawn in boiling water; it was then, as it is now, the favourite beverage of the country and almost entirely displaced the intoxicating drinks to which the Indians had been addicted to a deplorable extent. Because the herba forests (herbales) frequently lay hundreds of miles distant, and the Indians there employed had to be deprived of regular pastoral care for too long a period, the Jesuits attempted to transplant the tree into the Reductions; their endeavours were successful here and there, but the jealous Spanish colonists used every means to frustrate their endeavours. The other abundant natural resources, choice sorts of wood, aromatic resins, honey bees, and the like, were converted to useful purposes, and attempts were even made, on a small scale, to produce pig-iron. Cattle-raising attained a magnificent development, the entire country being rich in grass, and some estancias numbered as many as 30,000 sheep and more than 100,000 head of cattle, numbers which were not unusual in some of the Spanish haciendas. The herds were increased from time to time by the capture of wild cattle, and the breed improved by careful selection and breeding. Horses, mules, donkeys, and poultry were also raised on a large scale. In addition, hunting and fishing aided in providing support; these forms of sport were, however, restricted in the Guaran? Reduction for reasons of discipline. The individual Reductions devoted themselves more or less to one or the other branch of production, and supplied their wants by exchange with other Reductions. A written almanac of 1765, which the Salesian Fathers of Don Bosco discovered about 1890 at Asunci?n, contains on its parchment leaves, besides the calendar, an adviser for agriculturists, with particular reference to the climate of the country; the manuscript shows what knowledge and solicitude the apostolic missionaries devoted to agriculture.

(3) Industries

The vast needs of such an enormous establishment and the difficulties and expense of import necessitated the foundation of domestic industries. Thanks to the exceptional native gifts of the Guaran?s, the abilities necessary for almost all the trades and crafts were soon developed in these people. Some were carpenters, joiners, wood-turners, builders; others blacksmiths, goldsmiths, armourers, bellfounders, masons, sculptors, stone-cutters, tilemakers, house-painters, painters and gilders, shoemakers, tailors, bookbinders, weavers, dyers, bakers, butchers, tanners, instrument-makers, organ-builders, copyists, calligraphers etc. Others again were employed in the powder-mills, tea-mills, corn-mills etc. Each man remained true to the craft once adopted, and provided for the transmission of his trade by teaching it to apprentices. The wonderful quality of the products of the workshops in the Reductions is shown by the beautiful cut-stone work of the churches. In some of the Reductions there were printing establishments, as for instance in Corpus, San Miguel, San Xavier, Loreto, Santa Maria la Mayor, where principally books of a liturgical and an ascetic nature were printed. It should be noted particularly that the remarkably high industrial development was not reached until after the end of the seventeenth century, when Jesuits from Germany and the Netherlands came to Paraguay in larger numbers. In 1726 a Spanish procurator of the missions admitted that "Artes plerasque [missionarii] erexerunt, sed eas omnes Germanis debent." Arts and the crafts were completely neglected in the Spanish colony at that time, the houses in Buenos Aires being built of clay and covered with rushes. A German lay brother of the Society of Jesus, Joh. Kraus, erected the first larger brick buildings (college and novitiate) in Buenos Aires and C?rdoba; Brother Joseph Klausner of Munich introduced the first tin-foundry in the Province of Tucuman; while Indians from the Reductions, under the direction of the missionaries, built the fortifications and ramparts of Buenos Aires, Tobati, San Gabriel, Arecutagui, and other public works.

more...

http://www.newadvent...then/12688b.htm
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#1690 Bader

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 11:39 PM

any nation, people can make that claim, there is nothing exclusive about it like trying to claim being Gods only true church or people.
The fact that the continent of North America is so richly endowered gave rise to that claim, on top of being predominantly a christian (label of quantity not necessarily of quality) nation.
Yet they should remember also that to whom much is given much is expected.

I saw no intimation that GIJ thinks that good samartans are
bad or that it isnt a christian thing to be concerned about the sick and poor etc. In fact on one accasion this very thing was a
deciding point as to how much of a follower of Jesus the person was if they neglected these, including visiting those in prison.
Did God challenge Abraham to give up his sheppard king status-
a nomadic community dependant on him for their livelyhoods?

We cant cross over from the individual to the national in the same breath and then slide into ideologies and economics etc. Its quite logical and accepotable to me that if a man lives in good standing before God and his neighbour (love God and your neighbour as yourself is the fulfilment of the Law) he should receive rewards in this life and the next. If there was no lion and we all did the same (fulfilled the Law) this thread would not exist.
I dont hold to the common belief that the fact that one is rich is the reason another is poor, not saying it doesnt happen. This is part of the capitalist v socialist (north v south) dialectic construct to keep everybody divided and ruled.
The money system they both live under is what makes this happen. If they were to stop and think for themselves they would realise they have the same and common enemy and they could both be better off and anyone could get rich without depriving anyone else.
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#1691 GIJOE

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Posted 23 December 2003 - 11:44 PM

Originally posted by Bader
any nation, people can make that claim, there is nothing exclusive about it like trying to claim being Gods only true church or people.
The fact that the continent of North America is so richly endowered gave rise to that claim, on top of being predominantly a christian (label of quantity not necessarily of quality) nation.
Yet they should remember also that to whom much is given much is expected.

I saw no intimation that GIJ thinks that good samartans are
bad or that it isnt a christian thing to be concerned about the sick and poor etc. In fact on one accasion this very thing was a
deciding point as to how much of a follower of Jesus the person was if they neglected these, including visiting those in prison.
Did God challenge Abraham to give up his sheppard king status-
a nomadic community dependant on him for their livelyhoods?

We cant cross over from the individual to the national in the same breath and then slide into ideologies and economics etc. Its quite logical and accepotable to me that if a man lives in good standing before God and his neighbour (love God and your neighbour as yourself is the fulfilment of the Law) he should receive rewards in this life and the next. If there was no lion and we all did the same (fulfilled the Law) this thread would not exist.
I dont hold to the common belief that the fact that one is rich is the reason another is poor, not saying it doesnt happen. This is part of the capitalist v socialist (north v south) dialectic construct to keep everybody divided and ruled.
The money system they both live under is what makes this happen. If they were to stop and think for themselves they would realise they have the same and common enemy and they could both be better off and anyone could get rich without depriving anyone else.


CAPITAL WORKS, ARE A BLESSING TO THE BOTH THE GIVER AND THE RECIEVER, AND THIS IS THE WORD OF GOD.
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#1692 GIJOE

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Posted 24 December 2003 - 02:17 AM

Nero you have and enormous amount to be proud of.
the very fact that you are still here is and achievement.
As far as i can see you have been the scorn of so many for centuries, yet you still have survived.
Has your survivel made you feel any certain way, the constant struggle, the never ending hatred and envy, how does it make Nero feel?
GOD BLESS AMERICA and all the those who have suffered so long just because they are, one religion or another.
one color or another,

GOD STOP IT PLEASE RIGHT AWAY........
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#1693 Bader

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Posted 24 December 2003 - 04:45 AM

Howdy DONQ:
We were seeing different sides to what GIJ said. I appreciate
what you say but as Ghandi said he liked the Christians God but not the Christians so the scope of samples is vast, including what non-Christians see in Jesus or scriptures.
I always wondered what motivated a South African lawyer to go to India to try to end British rule when in SA Indians were third class citizens behind English in second place and India was caste
just the same as SA., perhaps worse.
There is no doubt that the US is slipping badly. I think it was as long ago as the 1960s that a book came out about the causes of the collapse of the Roman Empire and the parallels in the US were starting to show then as I recall. Naturally everyone thought that people in govt were there to do what was best for
the country and changes would be made to avoid the repeat of history but never or rarely happens.
I find evidence that Mr Putin is making an effort to turn thing around but not in the US. The US is number one like the Titanic was number one and it isnt funny at all.

Why not a revolutionary (Jesus)
It wasnt in the script.
The first Adam failed the WORD test and lost the title-deeds to the planet and all life. Jesus who has been called the Second Adam had to get it right in order to redeeem the fallen/lost race, retrieve the title deeds and provide an alternative Son.
When the devil took Jesus up on to a high mountain he showed him all the kingdoms of the world, obviously Rome was the biggest and offered him this inheritance (stolen from the First Adam) if he bowed down and worshiped him. Jesus didnt dispute the authority over the kingdoms and nations etc but he quoted
back the right order from the word of God which the First Adam failed to do.
There were a huge number of prophecies the messiah had to fulfill/observe, besides guidance in the first instance, and his main function was teaching the true and correct meaning of the scriptures to the people. The fateful- victory, the death and resurrection would come of themselves, he just concentrated on staying right on the word where the First Adam failed. So now neither spiritual powers or death can have victory over those who
have the faith of Abraham who believed God that he would provide the sacrifice to escape the law of death. The title deeds go with the Word, Satan was only a usurper until someone met the conditions - just like the holyland.
The Lion of history:
Check out Daniel 2:31-45 and again 7:2-27 for another view and the first kingdom of the beast that is the denominator of history
was a lion as you have used. The four stages of the empire of
the Usurper who rules over kingdoms are Babylon, Meda-Persia,
Greece including Alexander and his four Generals(4 heads) and the last is Rome which survives until the end of the world as we know it. At that time a "stone cut without hands" smashes the
empire in its end stage, the ten toes commonly held to be the
UE from the Treaty of Rome (EEC) ten original countries.
The fourth beast in chapter 7 is undescribed there but go to Revelation 13 and find the details there.
The power of the beast-empire is in Rev.12:3 and 4, his rebellion/revolt in the heavenly sphere enticed a third of the angles. This is the power over the Lions- kingdoms of this world.
A revolutionary wasnt called for and still isnt, a stone made without hands (untouched by HUMAN hands) will smash it to pieces. When the Lion is no more read in Daniel 7:27 what the people inherit.
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#1694 GIJOE

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Posted 24 December 2003 - 05:55 AM

are you from a tuetonic nation?
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#1695 Bader

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Posted 24 December 2003 - 06:56 PM

sounds like a drink students take when they start to fall asleep
in class after lunch!

Celtic-anglo-saxon brother, with a handfull of french and a pinch of Jewry herbs.
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#1696 donquijote

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Posted 24 December 2003 - 07:00 PM

< I dont hold to the common belief that the fact that one is rich is the reason another is poor, not saying it doesnt happen. This is part of the capitalist v socialist (north v south) dialectic construct to keep everybody divided and ruled.
The money system they both live under is what makes this happen. If they were to stop and think for themselves they would realise they have the same and common enemy and they could both be better off and anyone could get rich without depriving anyone else. >

I never said the rich makes another one poor, although in the brand of capitalism which can be called quite aptly the "law of the jungle," they don't seem to care to say the least. It was Guy de Maupassant who said, "It's not enough to be rich, others got to be poor." And it makes sense the way it makes sense for the lion to hold the monopoly over the only water well in the dry season...;) The little animals must accept whatever scraps the lion throws at them--and be thankful.:confused:

What I hold though is the little animals building their own water well (the coop), giving competition to the lion and options to the little animals. Obviously it's stupid for the lion to keep an eye over the sheep, ain't it?:)
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#1697 donquijote

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Posted 24 December 2003 - 07:11 PM

<Why not a revolutionary (Jesus)
It wasnt in the script.>

If Satan is roaring like a lion, and he got the paws and teeth of a lion, he must be the one we are after. No Lion No Problem!

PS: Merry Cristmas all!:)

This is a very interesting viewpoint on the lion. As Bader pointer out, we must expose him, for he's a faker...

"So here we have identical titles for Satan and Christ, which prove, once again, the nature of Satan's mission: to imitate and usurp Christ's position as not only king, but as God, Prophet and High Priest."

Answers to Catholic Converts, 4

In this response, I will first address Rebecca's correct correlation of opposites - specifically, Jesus as the Lion of the tribe of Judah vs. Satan the lion who prowls the earth seeking whom he will devour.

In Genesis 49:8-12 we find the prophecy of the coming Messiah, Jesus, the Lion. He would be descended from the Israelite tribe of Judah. This prophecy finds its fulfillment in Matthew's genealogy, chapter 1, verses 1-2, and Luke's genealogy, chapter 3, verse 33. The Apostle John describes the Lord as the Lion of the tribe of Judah in Rev. 5:5. Hebrews 7:14 also testifies to Jesus' descent from Judah.

Satan is described as a lion by Peter, (1 Peter 5:8). So the question arises, why has the Holy Spirit used the symbolism of the lion to represent both good and evil?

Answer: He does so because He wishes to teach us of the methods of Satan and his Antichrist. These methods include their false claims which mimic and counterfeit the true claims of Jesus Christ. Allow me to explain.

As King of kings, (Rev.17:14, Rev.19:11), Christ is rightly identified with the lion, king of the wild beasts. The recent Disney animated feature, The Lion King, confirms the common belief in lion as king. But Christ is not the only one who would be King. Satan, the Lord's rival and adversary, would also be king.

(a) As Christ is called 'the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, the Lord of lords,' (1 Timothy 6:15), Satan is called the 'prince of this world,' (John 12:31;14:30; 16:11). He proved his rulership of the world in his temptation of Christ, Luke 4: 5-6. The Greek word, "archon," is translated 'prince,' but may also be interpreted to mean 'chief,' 'first,' or 'ruler.'

(B) As Christ demands obedience of His subjects, (John 14:15), Satan demands obedience of his subjects, (Acts 5:3).

© As Christ is sovereign in setting His captive Elect free, (John 8:31-32, John 15:16; Romans 9:15-16; Eph. 1:4, etc.), Satan is sovereign in taking the unsaved captive at will, (2 Timothy 2:26).

(d) Jesus reigns as King of His people, the unique God-man. Satan reigns as prince and god of his people, "the god of this world, (II Cor. 4:4). Isaiah 14 explains at length Satan's unquenchable desire to be "like the most High."

Here we see a few similarities between the true King, Jesus, and His rival the false king, Satan.

Through further study of the Word, we discover Satan's son, the Antichrist, is the Man Who Would Be King. He is described as having the mouth of a lion, Rev. 13:2. He is seen as the king of the world, demanding obedience, Rev. 13:16-17. As a god, he demands and receives worship, Rev. 13:4. Incredibly, Scripture predicts he elevates himself above all that is called God or worshipped, II Thess. 2:4.

There is yet another title held by both Christ and the Devil. In Isaiah 14:12 we read, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning." Using a concordance, we discover that Satan's name, Lucifer, is from the Latin, which, in turn, translates from the Hebrew as "morning star." Jesus is called "the day star," (II Peter 1:19), and "the bright and morning star," (Rev. 22:16). So here we have identical titles for Satan and Christ, which prove, once again, the nature of Satan's mission: to imitate and usurp Christ's position as not only king, but as God, Prophet and High Priest.

The same can be said for Satan's son, the son of perdition, the Antichrist, who is made in the image and likeness of his father, the Dragon. Once we make this connection, i.e., that Satan and his Antichrist imitate Christ in all His offices and in all His miracles, we can now begin to eliminate potential candidates, zeroing in on the one who fits all the requirements necessary for the office of Antichrist. Those who do not profess to be king and ruler of the Christian Church do not qualify. Those who do not profess to be God on earth do not qualify. Those who do not profess be the chief and first among all Christians do not qualify. Those who do not claim to hold a unique descent and genealogy, as did Christ, do not qualify. Also, those who have not a history of devouring and destroying the innocent saints of God, as does Satan the Lion, do not qualify.

more...

http://www.iconbuste...RK/answers4.htm
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#1698 Bader

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Posted 24 December 2003 - 10:22 PM

DonQ: you have just stepped up the exposure of the lion

Comes down to the WORD v the corrupted word of the imposter.

The site and material you posted is the same issue. People
fed distortions and have no reason to think that priests like politicians will not tell the truth,wittingly or unwittingly.
This is the very point of my referring to brands. These brands of versions of the Word are for one purpose. You know the Lion is a bad lion even if he gets a perm and uses under arm lotion.

You can see why I didnt want to go down this track early in the thread because it is such a big dimension. The Lord of the Rings
has nothing on this. The Masons try and twist it around that
Jesus is the Darthvader and Lucifer is the good guy.

Its one thing to uncover the Lion its more important to uncover the word. Uncover the word and the the Word will take care of the Lion in due season. A good appreciation of the Word is the first chapter of John. His first verse summarises the first chapter of Moses -genesis.

For more information about the last beast empire of Rome which originated in Babylon read Tupper Saussy's book Rulers of Evil,
on line which shows how this hidden ancient power stands in the shadow of the most powerful country on earth.
tuppersaussy.com

PS I assume that because Bonapart and Third Reich and Bolshevists arent included in Nebuchadnezzer's Image is because they are within the "Roman" empire- part of the iron teeth, bronze claws.
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#1699 donquijote

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Posted 26 December 2003 - 05:27 PM

<DonQ: you have just stepped up the exposure of the lion

Comes down to the WORD v the corrupted word of the imposter.

The site and material you posted is the same issue. People
fed distortions and have no reason to think that priests like politicians will not tell the truth,wittingly or unwittingly.
This is the very point of my referring to brands. These brands of versions of the Word are for one purpose. You know the Lion is a bad lion even if he gets a perm and uses under arm lotion.>

Howdy Bader
This is a most interesting subject and it boils down to something we spoke about before: the TRUTH vs. the LIE. We are living under SATAN who's the LION who's the LIAR. But the Bible tells us, "The TRUTH will make you free," and thus we shall overcome...;)

Bader, look at this precedent of what we have spoken about: *the cooperatives as the best way for the little animals to organize themselves to be safe from the Lion*. Sadly in this case--as in most cases--they were crushed by the greedy beast as they were too successful. They did have some military organization though, which we can speak about later. Notice also the 6 hour workday...;)

Timothy Sutter <a202010@dcemail.com> wrote
> God made peppermint sticks, and some
> spirits stole some of the peppermint
> sticks and converted them into murder weapons.
>
> God is, therefore, angered at
> those spirits, and, must destroy
> those altered peppermint sticks.
>
> God has set aside a portion of peppermint
> sticks which will not see an ignoble use,
>
> maintaining their intended
> purpose as a sweet effect.
>
> God uses some of the peppermint sticks as
> instruments of their own salvation, inasmuch
> as more peppermint sticks would have been
> stolen and remanufactured as murder weapons
> and all trace of the orginally intended
> peppermint sticks could have been wiped out.
>
> these sticks witnessed, and were involved in,
> the destruction of the altered peppermint
> stick murder weapons.
>
> these peppermint sticks came to
> appreciate their own finer qualities,
> and to revere and respect the Creator
> of their kind as one who is stern yet loving.
>
> in short, life is supposed to be sweet,

Whenever we hear that sacrifice is "good for the spirit" and that it
earns us entrance into Paradise, we should suspect... "Life should be
sweet" makes sense to me though. Satan the Lion is a faker claiming to
act in God's name and even speaking of violence in His name.

Here's a view of the sweet life (notice how the Indians only worked 6
hours a day!) that was put into practice centuries ago, inspired on
the teachings of Christ. Of course, the Lion didn't like the
competition...

The Jesuit Missions (Reducciones) in South America.

Written by Marco Ramerini

"They put into practice the precepts of the Gospel, isolated the
Guaran? from the bad influences of the Europeans and developed the
creativity of the Indios."

The Indios Guaran? of Paraguay, Argentina and Brazil would have been
another indigenous people victim of the colonial conquest in South
America, if the Jesuits would haven't been able to persuade the King
of Spain to grant that vast region to their care.

The Jesuits promised to the King generous rewards, in the form of
tributes, in exchange of the exemption from the "encomiendas" (hard
labour to which were subjected all the other Indios), assuring that
the region would have been an Imperial dominion thanks only to the
Gospel power.

Therefore, for about 150 years, the Jesuits succeeded in protecting
the Guaran? from the raids of the slave-hunters from S?o Paulo
(Paulistas). They founded several missions or "reducciones" and
developed a kind of evangelisation a bit peculiar for that time. *They
put into practice the precepts of the Gospel, isolated the Guaran?
from the bad influences of the Europeans and developed the creativity
of the Indios*.

The Jesuits, in the 17th and 18th Centuries, achieved this bold
experiment in religious colonisation. The Reducciones encompassed the
vast zone of today's Argentina, Paraguay, southern Brazil and Uruguay.
They were one of the most singular creations of the Catholic
missionary activity.

The first settlement had founded in 1609. Many other Missions were
established along the rivers, in the Chaco, Guaira and Paran?
territories.

The first missions were founded in Brazil, but due to the continuous
raids of the Paulistas, were soon abandoned (1640s.).

Guided by the Jesuits, *the Indios had advanced laws, they founded
free public services for the poor, schools, hospitals, established
birth control, and suppressed the death penalty. A kind of society
based on the principles of the primitive Christianity had been
established. All the inhabitants of the "reducciones" worked in the
"tupambae", land property of the community, and all the products which
they produced were fairly divided among them. The Guaran? were very
skilled in handicraft works, sculpture, woodcarving etc.; the
"reducciones", were the first "industrial" state of the South America.
Indeed, such advanced products as watches, musical instruments, etc.
were produced in the "reducciones". The first typography of the New
World had been built in the reducciones. The working day was about 6
hours (in Europe at that time was of 12-14 hours), and the free time
had been dedicated to music, dance, bow-shot contests and to prayer*.

*The Guaran? society was the first in history of the world to be
entirely literate*.

The main settlements had been on the Rio Paran? along the border of
the present Argentina and Paraguay.

These missions reached their apogee in the first half of 18th century,
gathered around about 30 missions, between 100.000 and 300.000 Indios
converted to Catholicism.

The missions assumed almost full independence, as if they were real
nations.

The "reducciones" were centres of the community life. The main
buildings, like the church, the college, the church yard were
concentrated around a wide square. The Indios' houses were faced on
the other three sides of the square. The village was also provided
with a house for the widows, a hospital, and several warehouses. In
the centre of the square, rose on a tall base, remained a huge cross
and the patron Saint statue, for which the mission was named.

Some "reducciones" numbered up to 20.000 inhabitants.

Trouble started in 1750s, when the King of Spain ceded to Portugal a
portion of the territory where the missions were located . The
Portuguese, who wanted to take economic advantage of these zones and
of the work of the Indios, caused the so-called Guaran? wars which
concluded in 1756 with the Indios defeat. The Missions ended in 1767,
with the expulsion of the Jesuits. During that time, the last missions
also emptied and the Indios returned in the forest.

Today, of that time, are left the beautiful ruins of some of the
"reducciones", and the indigenous language: the Guaran?, that is today
the only native language to be the official language of a South
American nation: Paraguay. The Indios Guaran? almost disappeared as
they are now, reduced to only 50.000 people.

http://www.geocities...97/jesuits.html
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#1700 Bader

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Posted 26 December 2003 - 06:18 PM

Howdy DonQ:

Life was meant to be sweet. I liked that and the peppermentsticks spoke for me of the remnant that God always had left to witness against the Lie-on and his lemmon society.
We are heading back towards to the 12-14 hour work days again inspite of all the work technology does for us, mainly to pay the debt, economies cant grow as fast as debt.
Off the mainstream people with good intent and a good model to follow can easily show how possible it is for society to prosper.
I notice it was the extra-national decisions of lions that spoils it.
The Jeuits were 'officially' banned but they had their dark side
of intregue and subterfuge. Their head the Black Pope is said to be the power behind the thrown.
Like the British and US evil triumphs over the good over time.
Takes us back to "a remnant" of peppersticks.
The brutal plunder of South American gold has made the same label rated as the top financial power in regards gold. Currently
the world runs on paper but if it collapses, which many would believe is only a matter of time the label holding the monopoly on gold will become the centre of gravity.
Once every man has the mark of the beast (Lie-on), the chip/barcode, the temporary remnant witness societies may not
be possible. When the first city state of Babylon had such power
over humanity God intervened, broke up the state by confusion of languages and scattered the people. Globalisation (NWO) is bringing back the power of a single state to rule over all men again.
Both the return of Babylon and the closing down of a remnant-witness indicates the Lie-on is getting to his used by date.
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