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What would it take for Russia to be #1?


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#1701 donquijote

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Posted 29 December 2003 - 05:49 PM

<Life was meant to be sweet. I liked that and the peppermentsticks spoke for me of the remnant that God always had left to witness against the Lie-on and his lemmon society.
We are heading back towards to the 12-14 hour work days again inspite of all the work technology does for us, mainly to pay the debt, economies cant grow as fast as debt.
Off the mainstream people with good intent and a good model to follow can easily show how possible it is for society to prosper.
I notice it was the extra-national decisions of lions that spoils it.
The Jeuits were 'officially' banned but they had their dark side
of intregue and subterfuge. Their head the Black Pope is said to be the power behind the thrown.
Like the British and US evil triumphs over the good over time.
Takes us back to "a remnant" of peppersticks.
The brutal plunder of South American gold has made the same label rated as the top financial power in regards gold. Currently
the world runs on paper but if it collapses, which many would believe is only a matter of time the label holding the monopoly on gold will become the centre of gravity.
Once every man has the mark of the beast (Lie-on), the chip/barcode, the temporary remnant witness societies may not
be possible. When the first city state of Babylon had such power
over humanity God intervened, broke up the state by confusion of languages and scattered the people. Globalisation (NWO) is bringing back the power of a single state to rule over all men again.
Both the return of Babylon and the closing down of a remnant-witness indicates the Lie-on is getting to his used by date. >

Howdy Bader
Good pun with the word "Lie-on.";) It's like in the wild the lion uses his/her camouflage to catch the unsuspecting little animals. The human beings being a bit more sophisticated require more sophisticated lies: "democracy," "God" (organized religion), "socialism" and many other pretty words. The black sheep still being able to tell who's who though...

All we gotta do my good friend Bader is to blow the cover of the beast. We need to pass around the stories of "life in the jungle"...

This is the latest chapter of it, almost an idyllic picture...;)

Yeah right, an almost idyllic scene at the Intercontinental Hotel in
Downtown, Miami: The powerful sleeping tight in their luxury suites;
the homeless, a few feet away, camping out under the stars at the
romantic pier...

Meanwhile...

WE GOT THE BEST EDUCATED HOMELESS IN THE WORLD!!!

The homeless are everywhere: parks, beaches, scenic places, romantic
hideaways, libraries... The powerful, safe and comfortable in their
exclusive neighborhoods, ignore them; the average family, turned down
by their presence, is kept away from out better places... We can
safely say: America got the best educated homeless in the world!!!

THE PROBLEM

(Source: Homelessness in the United States: A Policy Analysis, by
Jessica P. Wilkins)

An ideal proposal also gets to the root of the homelessness problem.
Some proposals try and deal with the symptoms of homelessness, such as
building the homeless more shelters or allowing them to loiter in
parks
and other public places, but these proposals really do nothing to
combat
the true problem. Instead of dealing with the symptoms of
homelessness,
an ideal proposal would deal with the actual problem by trying to help
the homeless escape from their current condition.

A SOLUTION (Curitiba, Brazil)

Under the "garbage that's not garbage" program, 70% of the city's
trash
is recycled by its residents. Once a week, a truck collects paper,
cardboard, metal, plastic and glass that has been sorted in the city's
homes. The city's paper recycling alone saves the equivalent of 1,200
trees a day. As well as the environmental benefits, money raised from
selling materials goes into social programs, and *the city employs the
homeless and recovering alcoholics* in its garbage separation plant.

***Don't give them the fish (or worse, ignore them) but teach them how
to fish!***

This is my proposal...

'The homeless, who now occupy our better parks, should be incorporated
into light but necessary duties, like picking up litter, in exchange
for a decent wage; there should be no homeless. (Again, Curitiba is a
model on this.)'

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote
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#1702 Bader

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Posted 30 December 2003 - 09:19 AM

homeless in the world.

I liked that one DonQ.

Shows what wasted investment. They could all receive a dividend
as the rest of society on the intellectual, scientific, tecnological,
industrial, infrastructual and every other advancement of the pevious generations investment in the whole society/nation which is producing huge financial and material wealth daily - like the wheel, is public property.

What do you know about hemp DonQ?
Far too weak to be any use as a drug like its cousin but is the basis of a huge amount of products which can be produced quite cheaply, yet has been banned for a long time by the corporates.
Our Govt has recently allowed experiemental production, someone must have told them the world isnt flat after all.

Good reading here, not just on hemp but other things that have been referred to in the past on this thread:

sumeria.net/politics/shady3/html

Those who were intrigued by claims of US investment in Nazi Germany, here is you op. and right up to the Bush family.

The struggle is not against the puppet nor the puppeteer but the
audience.
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#1703 donquijote

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Posted 30 December 2003 - 06:07 PM

<What do you know about hemp DonQ?
Far too weak to be any use as a drug like its cousin but is the basis of a huge amount of products which can be produced quite cheaply, yet has been banned for a long time by the corporates.
Our Govt has recently allowed experiemental production, someone must have told them the world isnt flat after all.

Good reading here, not just on hemp but other things that have been referred to in the past on this thread:

sumeria.net/politics/shady3/html

Those who were intrigued by claims of US investment in Nazi Germany, here is you op. and right up to the Bush family.

The struggle is not against the puppet nor the puppeteer but the
audience. >

Good points, Bader.
The struggle is against the puppeteer who controls the mass media who controls the puppets. But the puppets are the first victims of the puppeteer, something they must have in mind. If they had a mind of their own they would notice they could have a better life of their own...:confused:

Regarding hemp, it should be allowed and marihuana should be regulated--and distributed via clinics. Amsterdam got a fraction of the problem Colombia has, which means we got to learn from Holland.

Here's another ugly face of the hungry stupid lion...;)

(I respond at the end)

> That is pure shit.
>
> There are dozens of predators that will hunt prey to near extinction before
> they suffer themselves from the loss of options in the options in the food
> chain that cause them to move on to a new region.
>
> I accept that we are developing with a passion that results in the loss ot
> habitat, I reject the notion that our recreational activities are
> devastating to the habitat. Yes, some recreation is hazardous to habitat,
> but the vast majority of habitat is beyond the reach of human recreational
> activity.
>
> I think that is is wrongheaded to say that humans seek out habitat to
> destroy.

It ain't pure shit... I know a few places that are being "developed"
unnecessarily. Just look around and you will notice the 'sprawl,'
plenty of it.

If the animals could talk we could be blamed for 'terrorism'... ;)

SPRAWL

More than one-third of the known species in the United States are
considered in danger of extinction (Stein et al. 2000). The main
threat to these species, and biodiversity in general, is habitat loss
and fragmentation. While habitat can be consumed and altered in
numerous ways, poorly planned development and unmanaged growth, or
sprawl, is one of the major contributors. In a recent California
study, sprawl was found to be the leading cause of species imperilment
(National Wildlife Federation 2001).

Sprawl, especially through the building of impervious surfaces and
roads, destroys and fragments habitat and disrupts ecological
processes. Invasive species thrive and pollution increases in these
disturbed environments, causing numerous additional problems for
species and their habitat.

Sprawl has been devouring land and habitat at an alarming pace. The
rate of sprawl in the United States almost quadrupled between 1954 and
1997 and doubled between 1992 and 1997. About 3 million acres (roughly
the size of Connecticut) of mainly forestland, pastureland, rangeland,
and crop land are converted to urbanized landscapes annually (U.S.
Department of Agriculture 1997).

http://www.biodivers...l/Disc/001.html
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#1704 donquijote

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Posted 30 December 2003 - 07:14 PM

Hey Bader, this is another recycled--something we should do more;)--article from Google. I put them here and I also take the best of our debates there. Nothing should go wasted...:)

This debate is real good...

> Here's an interesting case. The interaction of fir trees, moose, and wolves
> on Isle Royale National Park in Lake Superior. Note the decline of the fir trees
> followed by the decline of the moose followed by the decline of the wolves.
>
> Of course if you're an enviro its all due to Global Warming.
>
> http://ublib.buffalo...ases/Isle2.html>

God will "bring to ruin those ruining the earth."
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#1705 Bader

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 08:54 AM

We are dismantling the natural world and reshaping the earth
because we are so clever and because we can make a profit out of it.
Piping water beats walking to the nearest stream. Thats a simple
example but stripping land of trees for timber and walking away
leaving baron land to be eroded, steams to silt up etc causing problems for the community left behind by the corporates and the natural balance left in tatters is something else.
As I have explained before the money system is like a earoplane that has to maintain a minimum forward speed in order to stay
in the air/avoid a crash. This sybolizes the creation of money
(by typing figures into accounts out of nothing and charging interest) and the money volumn/supply, it has to keep on expanding
regardless of the state of the economy and the ability of people to keep on borrowing ( hense Greenspan's interest rate swandive). The
economy has to find excuses and materials to keep on producing
regardless of the trade wars and wars etc, and last but not least the abuse of the natural world. This is why we dont build things to last, it will hurt the forward ability of the fraudulent banking system.
I should expect that the billions being spent by several nations to find life on mars etc is really about finding another quarry to mine.
No govt will ever try to exploit what is found but the corporates will and why should they pay to find it when govts/taxpayers will do it for them.
Did Columbus go the America to catch butterflies (new life forms)
no he went to find gold and slaves.

The hemp issue I mentioned fits right in here. This plant (not the dope) is ideal for the kind of models you have promoted DonQ, and alternative economies, third world nations etc, even Russia because it supplies so many products. The corporates have banned it because it would bring a competitor as it is so cheap. So they use their power over the
prostitute MPs to ban it, as Rockerfella (Standard Oil) did by the prohibition to
stop car engines being developed to run on alcohol which everyone could brew at home.
Society doesnt have (not allowed) the option of the best choice regards the natural world use nor can it afford to look after it because the debt money system makes it too expensive.
Those who make the rules control the game and they have their own plan to save the world. The Biodiversity Treaty, by reducing the population by billions in the near future and separating out areas for man to live and animals to go back to the wild.
Russias population is predicted to drop by tens of millions just like in Africa. Not from natural laws like gravity but by policy of man-
free market revolution/plunder/neglect of the infastructure which needs to be maintained and expanded - poverty.
There is an Irish holocaust website which exposes the Irish "famine" as a coverup for wholesale genocide by poverty
just as african children die today because the IMF forces govts to export food out of their mouths to pay debt.
The Russians will not die as fast as the Irish did but their lives will be a lot shorter than they should be.
I do not belive that those who engineered the plunder in the
countries like Russia and Argentina and other didnt know what the results are going to be and they are identifiable but like those in the articles on the Sumeria site I gave who were guilty
of the Nzi crimes were never indicted, even the Jewish Nazi hunters looked the other way! Now that is aying something about the real world. The corporates, the Vatican and the Zionists all had a chip in the big game hence no one was able to expose the other.
And the UN looks the other way as all the govts in debt.
At some point in time the tangible world and everything we think we own will be of less book value than all the intangible debt on paper.
Look at all the embargos the US is holding over economies.
Then you get wombles that say we should tax all vehicle owners for global warming and they arent interested in running cars on water! See the corporates have stolen their brains and because they are greenies they are righteous/superior. Super-dumb!

The full text of 2 Peter 3:7 is that the present earth and heavens are reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgement and destruction of ungodly men.
The balance is in verse 12 and 13: looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with
intense heat. (global warming has nothing on this)
But according to his promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells (goodbye Lion/Fuehrers and natural world destroyers and others).

So it happened by flood - then a new world and regeneration of life forms-
genetic changes as discussed with WOJ earlier, next by fire and a new world. There is likely to be a genetic change back again so the lion will lay down with the lamb again.
The Ark for the second round is the center piece of the New Testament- the messiah/christ.
The posted quote said "the survival did not depend solely on human efforts" referring to the Noah's Ark. Thats an understatement. How would Noah get all the animals to pair off let alone come by and go into the ark with out a little help from his Friend, likewise the problems of nurture and sanitation while afloat. A handful of people armed with squaremouth shovels and buckets and wheel barrows to move the excretment and the food and the water, no gumboots! It simply said in chap 8: "and God remembered Noal and all the beasts and all the cattle that were with him in the ark." And says no more about it leaving common sense to consider they went into a sleep for the forty days and forty nights otherwise they would have been in deep shit!
After all there were no windows and sealed in pitch so it would have been dark inside. Imagine the oxygen demands for frightened animals, so if Noah had to have plans made for him,
ship not matched in size till in the eighteen hundreds I think it was,
in a world that had no ships before- imagine how many thought he was mad, no one has questioned it from the engineering or martine point of view, since it was made like a barge to float and not sail from A to B. So it is logical that the Designer had the
"natural world" problems sorted as well as the problems of round-up time. So I think we can agree it was a whole lot more than human effort.
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#1706 donquijote

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 05:31 PM

<We are dismantling the natural world and reshaping the earth
because we are so clever and because we can make a profit out of it.
Piping water beats walking to the nearest stream. Thats a simple
example but stripping land of trees for timber and walking away
leaving baron land to be eroded, steams to silt up etc causing problems for the community left behind by the corporates and the natural balance left in tatters is something else.
As I have explained before the money system is like a earoplane that has to maintain a minimum forward speed in order to stay
in the air/avoid a crash. This sybolizes the creation of money
(by typing figures into accounts out of nothing and charging interest) and the money volumn/supply, it has to keep on expanding
regardless of the state of the economy and the ability of people to keep on borrowing ( hense Greenspan's interest rate swandive). The
economy has to find excuses and materials to keep on producing
regardless of the trade wars and wars etc, and last but not least the abuse of the natural world. This is why we dont build things to last, it will hurt the forward ability of the fraudulent banking system.
I should expect that the billions being spent by several nations to find life on mars etc is really about finding another quarry to mine.
No govt will ever try to exploit what is found but the corporates will and why should they pay to find it when govts/taxpayers will do it for them.
Did Columbus go the America to catch butterflies (new life forms)
no he went to find gold and slaves.

The hemp issue I mentioned fits right in here. This plant (not the dope) is ideal for the kind of models you have promoted DonQ, and alternative economies, third world nations etc, even Russia because it supplies so many products. The corporates have banned it because it would bring a competitor as it is so cheap. So they use their power over the
prostitute MPs to ban it, as Rockerfella (Standard Oil) did by the prohibition to
stop car engines being developed to run on alcohol which everyone could brew at home.
Society doesnt have (not allowed) the option of the best choice regards the natural world use nor can it afford to look after it because the debt money system makes it too expensive.
Those who make the rules control the game and they have their own plan to save the world. The Biodiversity Treaty, by reducing the population by billions in the near future and separating out areas for man to live and animals to go back to the wild.
Russias population is predicted to drop by tens of millions just like in Africa. Not from natural laws like gravity but by policy of man-
free market revolution/plunder/neglect of the infastructure which needs to be maintained and expanded - poverty.
There is an Irish holocaust website which exposes the Irish "famine" as a coverup for wholesale genocide by poverty
just as african children die today because the IMF forces govts to export food out of their mouths to pay debt.
The Russians will not die as fast as the Irish did but their lives will be a lot shorter than they should be.>

Awesome again, Bader. We listen over and over again about the Holacaust commited by a lion--who made no pretenses otherwise--while we turn the other way away from the one being commited as we speak. But, of course, the lion now claims to be the shepherd and the sheep either don't notice or dare not challenge him, and in the end *all* the sheep will perish--and the lion too. Hey, I knew this had to have a "happy ending"...;)
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#1707 donquijote

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 05:34 PM

> Perhaps. Most environmetalist agenda that I have wittnessed calls for man to
> perish so that nature can sustain itself. I sense a certain contradiction to
> what you said and what I have seen with my own eyes.

That's pretty extreme. All you need is to remove some predators from
political office, and put in place those who make *conservation* as
high a priority as terrorism.

> The topic of the discussion is, "Is man the only animal that hates Nature?"
> I say, no. I say that man does not "hate" nature at all. Indeed, it appears
> to me (by the example I have given) that perhaps our love of nature is
> equally problematic as our abuse of nature.

And that "love of Nature" is displayed where exactly? The only "green"
our politicians seem to love is the dollar, ain't it?

> Nobody is agruing the need to live sustainably. I am arguing what activities
> can be undertaken while still sustaining the environment. I think we can
> provide for human needs while preserving and protecting the needs of habitat
> and species. I subscribe to the idea that if a wilderness divides housing
> centers and job markets, then we ought to be able to devise a transportation
> system that provides a link between these two locations and has minimal
> impact on the wilderness.

To begin with we should start with giving the people transportation
*options*, from bullet trains to bicycles. We need *bike lanes* to be
sure. Regrettably you better drive a polluting SUV nowadays to command
any respect in American roads...

Even more regrettably those same SUVs require oil, lots of it, and you
must get out there and get it, be it by cunning diplomacy or by the
sword. A double recipe for disaster, ain't it?

VOTE FOR PEACE: RIDE A BICYCLE!!!

Well, since this war seems to be about oil, why not boycott it? The
way to go is not to burn oil, but to 'burn the calories' in a nice,
clean and safe way...

(Source: World Press Review, letters)

Yes, we need to fight a war, but no, the enemy is not Iraq... The
enemy is oil with 65+ percent of the known oil reserves in the
politically unstable, "Death to America"-chanting Middel East. Imagine
the advances the United States could make to world stability and
developing domestic employment opportunities if it spent the $79+
billion Congress recently approved for Bush's Iraq war on alternative
energy subsidies and investment. Might this be a better way to fight
terrorism, support our troops, and regain world favor?

Jay Lustgarten
San Anselmo, California


(the emphasis in capital letters and quotes is mine)

Source: "Green Urbanism: Learning from European Cities," by Timothy
Beatley.

Bicycles as a legitimate form of mobility.

There are few mobility options more environmentally-friendly than
bicycles. They are zero emissions, take up relatively little space,
are inexpensive, are available to the young and old alike, and provide
their users with important physical exercise. In the United States and
many other developed countries, we have ignored or "forgotten" this
relatively low-tech mobility option. Yet, in many northern European
cities, bicycles are a significant and legitimate mobility option and
an increasingly important part of the transportation mix there.

Bicycle use as a percentage of the modal split is consistently much
higher in most of the cities examined in this study and vigorously
promoted as a more environmentally friendly mode, which provides
greater mobility than the automobile (specially for shorter
distances). Most of the cities studied here have developed, and
continue to develop, extensive and impressive bicycle networks. Berlin
has 800 kilometers of bike lanes and Frieburg has 410 kilometers.
Vienna has more than doubled its bicycle network since the late 1980s
and now has more than 500 kilometers. Copenhagen has about 300
kilometers of bike lanes and now has a policy of INSTALLING BIKE LANES
ALONG ALL MAJOR STREETS. Bicycle use there has gone up 65 per cent
since 1970. These cities show commitment to making bicycle use easy
and safe, and they reveal the key ingredients to building
bicycle-friendly cities.

Bicycle use in these exemplary cities is year-round proposition.
Summer use of bicycles is usually higher in northern cities such as
Copenhagen, where 40 per cent of work-commutes are by bicycle during
these months. Nevertheless, in Copenhagen some 70 per cent of those
normally bicycling also bicycle to work during the winter months.
Similar experience can be found in Finnish cities, suggesting that the
notion that bicycling is feasible or acceptable only in ideal weather
is untrue. That such high rates of usage can be achieved in northern
European cities suggests GREAT PROMISE FOR AMERICAN CITIES. And, while
bicycles are specially promising for shorter trips, it is clear that
many people are prepared to ride their bicycles considerable
distances. It has been estimated that in Copenhagen, an average
bicycle commute is 7 kilometer, or about 20 minutes --many commutes
are longer, which indicates that many residential areas will, given
facilities and safe routes, be within a reasonable bicycle commuting
range.

WHAT I PROPOSE:

Public transportation should be A1. (The city of Curitiba, in Brazil,
offers us a functional model of transportation; BICYCLE LANES SHOULD
BE IMPLEMENTED ALONG ALL MAJOR STREETS.)

(snip)

LETTER OF SUPPORT:

I am glad that the conversation includes some of the root causes of
our attitude to the rest of the world. This country is truly addicted
to oil, and we behave just like an addict in that sense - nothing else
matters as long as we can continue to feed our addiction...

It is true that there are things to be learned from the European
cities to make this country less oil dependent. I would suggest
reading "Asphalt Nation" which points out that those who are most
affected by our automobile dependent country are those whose voices
aren't heard: the poor, the young, and the old, who for reasons beyond
their control do not have access to the freedom of movement given to
us who use a car. This is a tough problem for a community to consider.

As a long time bicycle commuter in Miami ( I have over 45,000 commuter
miles logged on three bikes), I disagree with the idea that you can't
ride a bike in S. Florida. Yes, you do end up getting wet (either due
to internal or external factors) on most days. Yes, we do need bike
lanes (NOT BIKE PATHS) added to the streets to separate autos from
bikes from pedestrians. None of those three methods of transportation
are compatible with sharing the same space. That doesn't prevent us
from doing what we can - taking advantage of the bike racks that have
been added to the Metro Busses to allow one to only ride part of the
way (the same can be done at MetroRail), dressing appropriately,
taking a change of clothes (including a towel) in your backpack (along
with a spare tube), and most importantly letting the local government
know that these are important issues to us.

Source: book 'Home Ecology,' by Karen Christensen

When I mentioned that I was thinking of getting a bicycle to two male
friends, both regular bike riders, they were horryfied. A passing bus
would blow me over--IT WAS NOT SAFE. There's no doubt that the main
problem for a bike rider is the sheer mass of metal which threatens
you every time you venture out, and in a collision the person on the
bike is always the one at risk. Many drivers behave appallingly badly
to bike riders, while others are simply oblivious of us.

(snip)

A transport strategy giving high priority to bicycles would change
everything. How wonderful it would be to have separate bicycle paths,
plenty of marked bicycle routes, and counter-flow on one-way
streets...
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#1708 donquijote

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 05:45 PM

> The bloody 'Watchtower' magazine....the bloody Jehovah's Witnesses !!
> Thank the 'gods' the deranged little bastards have stopped knocking on my
> Door now !
>
> What do they have against Crowleys 'book of the law' anyway ?
>
> (Maybe I shouldn't have been holding my cat by the throat
> while telling them about it..)
> --

The only thing we have in common may be the fact the we both recognize the fact of Satan the Lion. However I favor the uprising of the little animals--pretty much like in Animal Farm--while they believe in the second coming of the Shepherd to save them, that's all...

PS: Please drop the cat. Save it for the lion... ;)
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#1709 donquijote

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 06:18 PM

I don't know what it is in the Chinese calendar... Nevertheless, Bader, all, HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

> > > which animal is your favorite animal?
>
> > The monkey, the peaceful monkey. It's funny
> > and knows how to deal with the lions... ;)
>
> in what way might the monkey care at all about
> big people in big countries and little people
> in big countries and little people in little countries?

The peaceful monkey is a good samaritan. Another one like Christ,
Gandhi or King and many others. He knows the lion causes the violent
monkey and that this one tends to become a lion once in power. He
believes in Orwell's "The hope lies in the Proles..."

He's also tired of the lion. Everywhere he goes the lion is roaring.
Even the roads or a little kayak trip turns into a dangerous challenge
from SUVs and motorboats. He believes that life will so much better
without Satan the Lion, at least with the beast being tamed like in
the pictures of Paradise...
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#1710 Bader

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 07:16 PM

"..that I have witnessed calls for man to perish..."
Thats the Biodiversity Treaty which came out of the green world
summit of 92 and the other summits are furthering the same agenda. The UN will inforce it eventuqlly through local govt and national NGOs over the top of elected central govt.
We are looking at global sovietisation and it knows how to wittle down population to arrive at a perfect planning formula where necessary.

I dont intend to steriotype greenies but most seem to be wakko.
Prof, Margrit Kennedy a German Green has her head screwed on
the right way,
she knows the banking system has the world screwed up but most greens like the copy posted are into restructuring society so people pay for a superficial and phoney pretence of addressing the problem while moneypower and industry driven by debt carries on destroying the environment outside of the restructuring advocated.
Bush is into restructuring- bomb and rebuild to help the banks but the basic environmental problems are still there.
These greenies are save the bankers, corporates and oil in particular first then fluff around whats left in their wake.

Bikes: Back to a favourite eh DonQ.
We have talked about people time (and money) being robbed.
A monetary reformed society would give people more time and money. There would be a boom in SUVs and travel to and fro
having a good time for a while but eventually they will start to slow down (those who are oldies- over thirty) and get closer to
nature, the simple things, take time and relax and start to be more inventive and constructive rather than experimenting with energy. They will start to ride a bike to walking tracks and parks
and soak in what man in incapable of producing and take a holiday from expending what man does produce because the quality, quantity and the price is far superior.
We just need to be unshackled not turn green in shackles.

".. the one (holcaust) being committed as we speak. But of course the lion claims to be the sheperd..."

Rev 13:11 And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon.
:12 And exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. ...

You described the wolf/lion in sheeps/shepherds clothing DonQ.
- LIKE A LAMB

IN verses 14 and 15 it talks about causing the world to conform to an image that will control all life and in 16 , to the point that we are all controlled by the human chip now available and waiting a constructed excuse like Sept 11.
A hundred years ago this sounded science fiction like a lot of other
scriptures.
People are already dying in large numbers through poverty and depleted uranium, man made deseases etc but when the chip comes no one can buy or sell without it- you die of starvation and under legislation like Patriot 2 the definition of a terrorist is fluid
and anyone who thinks wrong can have their chip desystemised so they no longer can exist. No prison camps needs just bigger
grave yards. Hitler (the commercial model) was a boy-scout
compard to these guys. Absolute power corrupts absolutly
and the greens will cheer as those terrible humans get whittled down and everyone forced to comply with the Law.
Who knows perhaps the NWO flag will be green with a hammer and sickle in the middle claiming all human industry has been
captured by sanity (the people). We have heard that before.

For a view of how the world is being rebuilt to conform to an
international image find a copy of the National Defence Strategy of 2000 put out by Bush the shepherd King.
To summarize- if the IMF and WTO etc cannot force nations and economies to conform, the US army will and until the world is
conforming with the NWO there remains negative conditions that are conducive to terrorist forces forming.
See how he is saving Iraqi people from terrorism and preventing "terroist" forces growing there?
I suspect the TWO HORNS are the City of London and Wall St-
the coalition US and UK forces are their cannon fodder.
They are the enforces- carry out the authority of the Fourth Beast
in Danial (Rome).
When those catholic Irish get to the bottem of who is pulling the strings that caused the famine they just might get a shock of their lives. Then they will know why the church fathers said nothing just like certain jews about Bushs grandfather and others
on Wall St etc.
Create a big enough Lie-on is the same as tell a big enough lie
people will believe (in) it.
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#1711 GIJOE

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 12:53 AM

JOHNNY CARSON ONCE SAID,

THE BEST PLACE TO BE DURING AND EARTHQUAKE, IS A DOORWAY,
BECAUSE NO JEHOVAH WITNESSES HAVE EVER BEEN KILLED DURING AND EARTHQUAKE.
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#1712 donquijote

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 04:23 PM

John Beardmore <wookie@wookie.demon.co.uk> wrote
> >As I have explained before the money system is like a earoplane that
> >has to maintain a minimum forward speed in order to stay
> >in the air/avoid a crash.
>
> Yes, but the real question is
>
> 'Do you have a better idea ?'.

Well, I got a few ideas. Actually there are dozens of good ideas
sitting out there while we speak but "somehow" nothing is being done
about it. To begin with, I would cite the introduction to my
solution...

A ROAD TO FREEDOM (UNLIKE RUSSIA'S)

Why not build a new system? That offers PROSPERITY, SOCIAL JUSTICE and
FREEDOM; that discards the defects of both Communism and Capitalism;
and that places the system at the service of the human being, and not
the other way around. Why not HUMANISM?

Naturally, education and health care should be the maximum priorities;
they should be free -or affordable, in the case of higher education-
and accessible to all. Education should emphasize the learning of
English -or Esperanto, if we all ever agree on it- and literacy... in
computers. Likewise, culture and sports should receive special
attention (for example, adopting the affordable child-care centers; in
general, we would have much to learn from the Scandinavian model).

more...

http://webspawner.co...ers/donquijote1

In other words, we can say any change would begin by EDUCATING the
people. Actually Scandinavia is light years ahead of anything
America's 19th-century capitalism (Perot's words) is doing.

But if you want more practical ideas look at this neat ideas waiting
to be implemented...

http://www.natcap.org/

"If Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations was the bible for the first
Industrial Revolution, then Natural Capitalism may well prove to be it
for the next. I believe that the only real alternative to our 'take,
make, and waste' society lies in a revolution of aspiration and
inspiration. The aspiration must come from us, from seeing the world
we intend to leave our children and their children. The inspiration
will come from shared understanding of the principles for an economic
system consistent with how nature works, and from seeing that it can
be done, thanks to books like the stunning Natural Capitalism."
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#1713 Bader

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 08:21 PM

WE are on that plane has has to maintain the minimum forward speed. Our leaders are sitting up the front but the bureacrats are at the controls of the plane made by the international bankers.
The minimum forward speed is a lot faster than the passengers can think. The leaders merely look at the instruction book and quote the "experts", so dont expect the dumb leaders to listen to the dumb passengers.
One of the instruction books is the OECD report on all the
developed nations which analyses the economies and says what they should doing. The leaders follow advice to get a better rating from Standard and Poors etc in order (like a school kids report from school) to attract foreign investment/sell currency.
(This means we are no longer allowed to be masters of our own destiny- we have to submit to rules we dont contribute to and cannot see the outcomes)
Its against this that govts try to balance the demands of the public/passengers and obviously they come second unless the
issue is critical such as at election time, then the party comes first.
Democracy doesnt fit, doesnt belong.
Which is like saying the people dont fit, dont belong and what can they do without people?
But people cant agree on whats wrong and thus how to fix it.
Our understanding is all over the place thanks to the media, education and the divide and rule party politics.
Humanity is being squeezed into formulas and ratios that supposed represent economic success even if it kills people by poverty and industrial/pharmacutical poisens. So not only democrccay doesn fit in neither does
humanitarianism or social justice. We have classic " people are
made for systems"- for the state/ for the elite.
A basic tenet of any society should be "systems are made to serve the people". This is as absolute as life or death. Measure everything by that and you cannot get to prostitute democracy as we have everywhere.
One of the things they are trying to do, for example, is reduce the ratio of
govt spending (public policy) and increase the savings ratio. So what do they want to do- put back retirement age -benefits/pensions and make people work longer, even if they are not physically able to,
will increase the health bill anyway and shorten lives (thats good because they wont have to pay a pension) and if people are forced to work for income (reducing those on benefits, even if
health handicapped ) so they earn more and thus theoretically can save. But once you are about fifty years of age no one wants to employ you, they would rather train a lower paid young person. People work longer for the same standard of living so the opportunity for more part time jobs is countered and foreign companies buy up businesses and restructure and dump staff
and there is no work in the area.
Formulas and ratios dont see this, we are numbers not beings.
Can we call it social terrorim? Fundamentalist economists rather than fundamentalist religious playing god but being a dog.
The free-market advocates promised the market would deliver the jobs and run all the services cheaper reducing the role of the state- catching people falling through the cracks. Not only are the cracks getting bigger they (cracks) are invading the private
world of "business".
Words like "business" "efficiency" "the market" "finance" etc are
about as meaningful to the average person as any words common to witchcraft. Because they have the same effect- to deceive, capture and exploit.
As we fly along various groups say - if we flew over that way
we could fix the problem. Another group will say yeah but we should be flying lower we are too high. Someone else will say- did you notice the safty instruction by the hostess, that is wrong we shouldnt have to do this, they should build ......., another will reply- then the fares would go up, another will say these planes are too small and too slow, etc etc when we
shouldnt be on this b----y plane in the first place.
We should stop trying to make a dog fly and use our money,time and energy into making our own way to where we want to go
that suits US. Thats called democracy.
Most of the problems would disappear if we created our own figures on paper (finance) instead of getting into bondage to
a stranger by renting their (plane) figures on paper. Thats how simple it is. This basic element of (public) sovereignty has been sold out (privatised) by prostitute politicians all over the world.
Democracy cant begin to function because the people dont have the financial freedom/power to do what they want. We CANT DO ANYTHING WITHOUT MONEY. They who control the MONEY control
the "DO".
Which means we cant stop DOing what we shouldnt be doing nor start to DO what we should. Because the Greens are blind they fall for the set-up and advocate what the Lions wants next-
global regimes.
Until the greens wake up they will continue to be part of the problems.
The debt that once drowned govts so they were forced to turn to the "free" market is about to drown the local bodies. The West
infrastructure is old and tired and will cost untold billions to replace especially to take the infux of foreigners flooding in.
Moving industry off-shore has only delayed the inevitable. Property owner/rate payers will have to foot the bill. Private property is supposed to be one of the corner stones off a free society.
Real economies arent growing. Industry is being sold into fewer hands and closed down or moved off shore. Is there any
industrial boom in third and fourth world countries to become
like the developed world. No, they rent industrial space to
foreigners, perhaps their govts are building new infastructures
for them so they dont have to help pay for the restructuring in
the once developed world.
It would appear the short cut to meeting ratios and graphs and save the environment is to reduce dramatically= tragically the
population of the world as the greens summit meeting treaty outcome demands.
So if greens want to leed the world into an new era (error) they should hold their next global summit at the top of the Grand Cannons and when they have finished all hold hands and jump over the side, set an example, stop talking about it and do it.
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#1714 GIJOE

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 05:20 AM

I have always wondered when the greens worked, and if they did anything besides protest all the evils of the worlds big governments.
They kind of remind me of the jehovah's witneses's, always in your face with their damned bibles, suits and ties.
If these peoples spent more time trying to make their own lives and the lives of their families better, they would not have the time to be bangiing on our doors.
Don't preach to me, show me how you live and your example will have a greater affect on my thinking.....
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#1715 GIJOE

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 05:22 AM

Originally posted by donquijote
John Beardmore <wookie@wookie.demon.co.uk> wrote
> >As I have explained before the money system is like a earoplane that
> >has to maintain a minimum forward speed in order to stay
> >in the air/avoid a crash.
>
> Yes, but the real question is
>
> 'Do you have a better idea ?'.

Well, I got a few ideas. Actually there are dozens of good ideas
sitting out there while we speak but "somehow" nothing is being done
about it. To begin with, I would cite the introduction to my
solution...

A ROAD TO FREEDOM (UNLIKE RUSSIA'S)

Why not build a new system? That offers PROSPERITY, SOCIAL JUSTICE and
FREEDOM; that discards the defects of both Communism and Capitalism;
and that places the system at the service of the human being, and not
the other way around. Why not HUMANISM?

Naturally, education and health care should be the maximum priorities;
they should be free -or affordable, in the case of higher education-
and accessible to all. Education should emphasize the learning of
English -or Esperanto, if we all ever agree on it- and literacy... in
computers. Likewise, culture and sports should receive special
attention (for example, adopting the affordable child-care centers; in
general, we would have much to learn from the Scandinavian model).

more...

http://webspawner.co...ers/donquijote1

In other words, we can say any change would begin by EDUCATING the
people. Actually Scandinavia is light years ahead of anything
America's 19th-century capitalism (Perot's words) is doing.

But if you want more practical ideas look at this neat ideas waiting
to be implemented...

http://www.natcap.org/

"If Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations was the bible for the first
Industrial Revolution, then Natural Capitalism may well prove to be it
for the next. I believe that the only real alternative to our 'take,
make, and waste' society lies in a revolution of aspiration and
inspiration. The aspiration must come from us, from seeing the world
we intend to leave our children and their children. The inspiration
will come from shared understanding of the principles for an economic
system consistent with how nature works, and from seeing that it can
be done, thanks to books like the stunning Natural Capitalism."?Peter
Senge, author of The Fifth Discipline

That's right "Natural Capitalism" is waiting out there to be
implemented. Our leaders don't see it, but how can you expect the
lions to admit that there's a jungle out there? ;)



DON Q, WE NEED MORE PEOPLE LIKE YOU IN THIS WORLD.
YOUR HEART IS RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!! joe
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#1716 donquijote

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 05:10 PM

<DON Q, WE NEED MORE PEOPLE LIKE YOU IN THIS WORLD.
YOUR HEART IS RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!! joe >

Oh thank you, GI. I knew you were the real McCoy...;)

> > The peaceful monkey is a good samaritan. Another one like Christ,
> > Gandhi or King and many others. He knows the lion causes the violent
> > monkey and that this one tends to become a lion once in power. He
> > believes in Orwell's "The hope lies in the Proles..."
>
>
> we assume monkey is 'Prole'
>
> is 'Owl' also "Prole"?
>
> if yes or no,

Yes, he's. Only gifted by good sight. He wish to live in a happy
garden, that's all... ;)
>
> is any advantage this "Owl" can bring
> those not have same vantage point?
>

Sure. A Mixed Economy including coops and capitalist enterprises would
allow *anyone* to find his own niche, whether you are cooperative type
or the predator type. But must importantly the advices of the Owl
would insure the survival of all--including the lion!--for the jungle
is indefensible from the violent monkeys and environmentally doomed.

> for all practical purposes, it not
> look as if 'Owl" is 'Prole'
>
> Owl only look at Prole
>
> Owl not live eat and work with Prole
>
> so, if hope not lie in "Owl"
>
> what can Owl do for hope of 'Prole'?
>
> or is "Owl" only interested in mice?

Again, Owl wants to see a better world in which he and others can be
happy.
>
>
>
> Don Quijote wrote:
> > He's also tired of the lion. Everywhere he goes the lion is roaring.
> > Even the roads or a little kayak trip turns into a dangerous challenge
> > from SUVs and motorboats. He believes that life will so much better
> > without Satan the Lion, at least with the beast being tamed like in
> > the pictures of Paradise...
>
>
> any chance that heavy machinery
> has an equalizing effect?
>
> whose voice is louder?
>
> man in wheel chair or man riding on horse?

The way it is now, guy riding bicycle is fair prey to guy riding SUV.
It's like ant and dinosaur. The ants always have to be on the run not
to be stepped upon... :(

>
>
> what exactly supports human equality?
>
> what exactly denies human equality?
>
> is human equality a desirable goal?
>
> if all human beings are not
> identical in every respect,
> how do you propose to see that
> none is overvalued or undervalued?

OK, it's a matter of 'degree,' making the society so much better. Say
like the difference between Canada and Haiti. Canada ain't perfect,
but where would you rather live? And we can even improve on Canada,
can't we not?

>
> you claim this 'lion' has a distorted value,
>
> therefore, you claim that the entire
> 'jungle system' is distorted in value.
>
> if any of the creatures can extract a distorted value,
>
> all of the creatures live in a distorted value.
>
That's right.

>
> how will you convince any creature to relinquish
> its overvalued status in favor of human equality?

Those at the upper end of the food chain must share because...their
own survival is at stake. The jungle ain't sustainable. Violent
monkeys today have access to mighty stones, which can disrupt the
sleep of predators and little animals alike. Once the violent ones
though see no lion in us, they would probably worry about their own
lions...
>
>
> how can you convince such that the undervalued
> creatures don't just want to attain and keep what
> the overvalued creatures already possess, and
> -not- attain and maintain human equality?
>
> that is, how can you convince a lion that
> a monkey wants to be peaceful when a monkey
> turns lion when prodded by a lion?
>
> will mob ruled melee simply turn back into
> lion ruled order given an indefinite amount of time?

No, the rules of the games will be "NO LION,' so we must always--even
kids--be vigilant of the lion. Besides in the cooperatives there's no
lion as all the little animals share together without State or Boss.
They wouldn't *need* to drink from the dirty waterhole...
>
>
> you speak of discontent.

Yes, somewhat discontent to see the environment destroyed every day,
when not discontent about the possibility of my city be blown up
tomorrow...
>
> tell me now, what makes the monkey content.
>
> can a lion share in -this- sort of contentment?

Exactly man, let's tame the beast. Who you think lives bettes, say,
Colombian lion or Scandinavian lion? ;)

HOW THE LION BENEFITS FROM THE LITTLE ANIMALS' POVERTY

One day all the little animals went up to the King of the Jungle and
complained about their poverty, and in particular about the fact that
every time, during the dry season, they had to travel long distances
to drink the precious fluid, and demanded a water well be built for
them... They cited how the resources that they contributed to the
kingdom were wasted in wars and extravagant projects to the tastes of
the King... He, however, replied with all kinds of excuses: the lack
of resources, that it wasn't a matter of him not wanting it, but that
it was a matter of "priorities" --which was one of his favorite
words...

Meanwhile, an Owl --who had very good eyes-- had been observing life
in the jungle, and thought this way: "Every time there's a dry season
the little animals must come to the little dirty waterhole where the
Lion waits for them... Had they been well fed and strong, he would
have had to run after them and even risk resistance..."

And that's how the Owl landed an important --and well paid-- post in
the brand new Astronomy Department created by the King of the Jungle
--to the effect of exploring life in other planets...

Moral: We don't need lions or violent monkeys that become lions. No
Lion No Problem!

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote
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#1717 donquijote

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 05:27 PM

<These greenies are save the bankers, corporates and oil in particular first then fluff around whats left in their wake.>

First of all, "Happy New Year All!"
OK, Bader, I see the "greens" as I see religion: Their cause is right, their leaders are corrupt. But let's not forget that's a noble cause...:)

<Bikes: Back to a favourite eh DonQ.
We have talked about people time (and money) being robbed.
A monetary reformed society would give people more time and money. There would be a boom in SUVs and travel to and fro
having a good time for a while but eventually they will start to slow down (those who are oldies- over thirty) and get closer to
nature, the simple things, take time and relax and start to be more inventive and constructive rather than experimenting with energy. They will start to ride a bike to walking tracks and parks
and soak in what man in incapable of producing and take a holiday from expending what man does produce because the quality, quantity and the price is far superior.
We just need to be unshackled not turn green in shackles.>

Right, no shackles, but no need to SUVs either. Smaller hybrid vehicles (say like the Mercedes A Class) can deliver people in style and comfort. Let's not forget that SUVs are also a danger--up to 16 times more dangerous--to smaller vehicles on the road...

".. the one (holcaust) being committed as we speak. But of course the lion claims to be the sheperd..."

<Rev 13:11 And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon.
:12 And exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. ...

You described the wolf/lion in sheeps/shepherds clothing DonQ.
- LIKE A LAMB>

I know, the lion never accepts being a predator. Always uses sheep skin and the other lions claim they don't see the beast either. The exception being Hitler and he lost the power game quickly...;)
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#1718 donquijote

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 05:39 PM

<I have always wondered when the greens worked, and if they did anything besides protest all the evils of the worlds big governments.
They kind of remind me of the jehovah's witneses's, always in your face with their damned bibles, suits and ties.
If these peoples spent more time trying to make their own lives and the lives of their families better, they would not have the time to be bangiing on our doors.
Don't preach to me, show me how you live and your example will have a greater affect on my thinking.....>

OK, GI, great point and I'll take you at your word. We need examples but we need also to have a chance to cooperate and survive! The greens can create kibbutz-style coops to show us about sustainable development. And that's exactly what we need! We need an independent water well!:)
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#1719 GIJOE

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Posted 04 January 2004 - 05:42 AM

There are water holes everywhere, but what good are they.
most of the water holes I E rivers streams lakes and now even the great oceans are to poluted to use for drinking water.
That is why we have a zillion different water companies, making a billion dollars a year around the globe.
Now should the powers that be clean up the water, this would cost the water sellers zillions of dollars. Hence no clean up in the works that is for real....... once again $$$$$$$$$$$ takes priorty over our lives.
I have been on to the water thing for over thirty years. In the last three decades neither me no my family have drank
''tap water'' We are wary to even wash in it.
the federal standards for clean water are a total scam, with incest being used to hire those that treat the water and are responsible to keep it safe for human consumpsion.
I for one believe the federal government should be far more concerned with overseeing the provisions of the purest water possible for ALL AMERICANS.
This would be far more important then using millions of police to arrest innocent people for petty drug charges, then haul them off these private MONEY MAKING JAILS, for the simple act of making
more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$. rather then spend this manpower to see that our water supply is the finest on earth.
I am for a free market economy, but not at the expense of the
middle and lower classes, when it comes to the most essential
commodity on the planet, ''WATER and AIR.
pretty soon it will cost us 5dollars for a bottle of pristine water, and before the century is out AIR will cost money that is pure air...........
How do we deal with this problem,
we make it a major issue in the next election.
of course big business, will lobby this right into the dustbin of history and our children and their children will suffer the results in the next fifty years.
Yes G I Joe has deep concerns for the humanism Donq, speaks about.

Donq stay with it even a lone voice can be heard crying out in the night!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

joe
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#1720 Bader

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Posted 04 January 2004 - 08:24 AM

And The New Civilisation,
Author scientist Brian St Clair Corcoran

"The demise of the sovereign democracies will culminate in the control of the worlds affairs by the multinational corporations.
This will result in the establishment of the new international economic order where the political power will be in the hands of the unelected power elite of the Euclidean scientific-industrial complex. This new global economic order is referred to as the New World Order.

"With the emergence of this ultimate Euclidean society the scene will be set for the rapid disintegration of civilisation and possibly the demise of mankind.

"Conclusion
With the realisation that virtually every aspect of the modern scientific-industrialised society is structured in terms of anti-evolutionary Euclidean thinking it is very clear that:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our civilisation is programmed to self-destruct
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

functioning as it does, according to the second Law of Thermodynamics, there will be increasing disorder and disharmony
on all fronts. Driving the Natural Energy Cycle in reverse, it is bringing about the mental, moral and physical decline of mankind. A decline which is causing civilisation to break down into a more primative order.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
WE ARE IN A LIFE-THREATENING CRISIS AS A CONSEQUENCE OF
OUR STATIC, EUCIDEAN THINKING (ASSOCIATED WITH OUR
LIMITED FOUR DIMENSIONAL CONSCIOUSNESS)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

"Time is rapidly running out for this civilisation. It is doomed to a catastophic collapse unless we restructure the industrial complex and society as a whole in terms of hyperbolic geometry in the near future."

First published 1993.

On the back cover of the book is says:
...He has succeeded in linking gravitation,electricity, and megnetism into one united field. This synthesis reveals that the visible Universe is structured in terms of hyperbolic geometry. ...
The auhors work has led to the profound realisation that there is
another dimension to the Universe which complements the four
dimensions of space and time....

I think you would enjoy this book DonQ. Heaps of maths, which would suit you, but readible nonthe less for others like me. He has a whole raft of applications across the social-political spectrum.
I will post a few more segments in due course.
He may still have the same address:
School of Objective Education
PO Box 35460,
Browns Bay
Auckland, 10
New Zealand.

People are writing articles etc that are concerned about the
policies that are actually putting the developed world in reverse
and no doubt within the green/environmental movement are those who would push the same in an attempt to save the world.
There is a dark side- totalitarian as well.
It seem quite evident that certain powerful persons have the privilege of chosing what the world "follows" out of what our more intelligent academics have discovered, to suit their own ideology and goals.
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