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#1801 donquijote

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Posted 14 January 2004 - 03:27 AM

Soros, a good lion, has decided to burst the buble, ie. the lie. We, the little animals, ain't alone...;)

'The future of the world hangs in the balance.'

Soros funds fight against Bush
Richard Thomson in New York, Evening Standard
13 January 2004

BILLIONAIRE financier George Soros has reiterated his determination to prevent President Bush winning the election this year, comparing his first term in the White House with George Orwell's grim political fables, and pledging to bankroll the opposition Democrat campaign.

'This is reminiscent of Orwell's famous book Animal Farm in which all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others,' Soros said, referring to the administration's foreign policy.

The fund manager, who has already given more than $12m (?5m) to the Democratic campaign to oust Bush, said he was prepared to give more money to oppose the President. 'I am ready to put my money where my mouth is,' he said.

Soros, worth $7bn, spoke at the launch of his new book, The Bubble of American Supremacy, much of which is devoted to hammering US foreign policy under Bush. He said Bush 'uses the war on terror as a pretext to pursue a dream of American supremacy that is neither attainable or desirable'-Bush's defeat in 2004, he said, would been seen around the world as a rejection of a doctrine that holds that the US 'will not tolerate any rival globally or in any region' and that it 'has the right to engage in preventive adventures abroad'.

An electoral defeat for Bush would also give America the opportunity to 'resume its place as a powerful but peaceful nation', adding: 'The future of the world hangs in the balance.'

Although the Bush campaign has raised more than $130m to spend on the election, and aims to raise at least $170m, it believes Soros and others could help the Democrats spend up to $400m to oppose the incumbent President and criticised Soros' campaign contributions and his political ideas.

Soros said he particularly supported Vermont governor Howard Dean to be the Democratic challenger although he liked the foreign policy platforms of Senator John Kerry and retired general Wesley Clark.

He compared the Bush doctrine of pre-emption with a financial bubble that arises out of poor analysis. 'The misinterpretation is that might is right and we ought to use our dominant position to impose our will on the world,' he said.

'We can either deflate the bubble before it does any more damage or we can endorse the Bush doctrine and suffer the consequences.'

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#1802 Pliny

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Posted 14 January 2004 - 04:01 AM

We are in a struggle, Donquixote, a struggle of life over death, living over dying. The happiest moments in anyone's life are the times he bested all odds and came out alive. These are the times when he is living. These times make life worthwhile. There must be challenges for us as individuals to give our lives value and we must be free to accept those challenges.
Socialism tends to want to remove those challenges by oppression and force-feeding. The welfare state drains life from individuals, those that they take from and and those that they give to, and bloats itself beyond sustainability. Thus it fails over time.

I am not an environmental scientist so I trustingly leave that aspect of our existence to them. If they are sanely going about their appointed duties and are able to evaluate data to extrapolate a future for all of us I would say they are doing their job. Unfortunately, I believe, vested interests have corrupted that process for their own purposes, not the least of which is to have a cowed and maleable populace. The data is not being presented properly but we are, however, implementing actions
that would seem to be appropriate and still the fear-mongering continues. Something is wrong.

I think we can both agree that a "lion" exists but I do not think we agree on the nature of the beast. International banking and corporatism are problems and I think they could stand being brought down a few notches. They collude with governments and in some instances (if not all) control them and their actions.

This is the challenge that faces us today. They must be brought down, not with guns and WMDs but with truth and shining the light on them. It is a very difficult situation for us but I think it means our future. Do we remain the economic slaves we are, being content to accept our fates from birth to death, or do we fight off this oppression?

The fight, and it is a fight, has always been for life. Your ideas have merit if they allow for the individual to live his life and face it's challenges but it helps if he knows what they actually are. The lion is one, if he oppresses his fellow-man.

Till the next!!
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#1803 donquijote

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Posted 14 January 2004 - 04:23 AM

"natural selection had to make us afraid, and we are left with phobias more debilitating than we need."

In other words, fear from the lion outside is keeping us down, and it has become itself the lion within.

It reminds me of, "The worst thing to fear is fear itself."

The Tangled Wing: Biological Constraints on the Human Spirit by Melvin Konner, 2nd edition. Henry Holt, New York, 2002.

(snip)

Any of the seven chapters on emotions - which make up the central third of the book - can illustrate how well The Tangled Wing combines big-picture questions with technical expertise. Take Fear, which like other chapters has the science framed by pages of anecdote and vision. ?We have dropped into the bowels of the beast,
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#1804 donquijote

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Posted 14 January 2004 - 04:43 AM

< Knowledge is free from religion passions. >

Woj, your thoughts reminds me both of:

"The Truth will make you free..." (Bible) and

"There is more religion in men
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#1805 Bader

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Posted 14 January 2004 - 07:01 AM

Howdy Pliny: the brackets were the authors.

I agree with you vested interests have intercepted the environmental-science thing as a pre-emptive strike to save them
heaps and shelter behind.
I liked your comment- backtracking our understanding of ourselves. I have previously objected to the study of animals as a basis to determine how we are and how we should be treated,
trained, controlled and conditioned.
Man has nurtured, nursed, incarserated, trained, educated etc etc
human beings for thousands of years so why havent we learnt something, why go to animals to learn?

Howdy DonQ: the thread is humming again. I liked your commen about democracy being burnt out like communism. Although it
is probably more correct to say it hasnt really been tried. We heard this about communism as well earlier. Someone said the same thing about Christianity but I cant recall the main point.
So it is all allied to half-truths etc.

I would be more cautious re Soros. As for Dean who he likes he is two-faced and will do/appear what ever will get votes. Anyone honest will not get a look in. I bet Soros isnt against Bush because he lost money, Bushmanship is excellent for speculation. Look at the shares that changed hands just prior to Sept11 because certain ones were in the know.

Howdy Woj: "knowledge is free from religion passion."
I dont think there has ever been any secret that the pursuit of the knowledge of God to help man to grasp what life is all about etc has been with us for thousands of years and is one of the reasons why there are so many different religions claiming they have found a path that expands man knowledge of reality and the future.
However today the powers that be are more into rationalizing what knowledge is knowledge and what knowledge isnt.
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#1806 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 14 January 2004 - 12:30 PM

Donq;* Democracy, real democracy is our goal, BUT regrettably the name is as burned out as communism. At that point only democracy--government of the little people--will remain.*
*__________________BILLIONAIRE financier George Soros has reiterated his determination to prevent President Bush winning the election this year, comparing his first term in the White House with George Orwell's grim political fables, and pledging to bankroll the opposition Democrat campaign.*

- democracy being burnt out like communism.

Please don
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#1807 woj1@cyberonic.

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Posted 14 January 2004 - 06:38 PM

Step by step, chapter by chapter Desmond Morris proved that we become very powerful and successful naked ape.

We are so powerful that we create danger to our Earth . It sets question; would nature benefit from further expansion of naked ape or would rather naked ape lead to elimination of nature?
I don
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#1808 donquijote

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 02:37 AM

<Donq; You too long walk in the sun without turban when you say; *Nine of the 12 "cleanest" nations are in Europe - in descending order: Finland (1), Denmark (2), Sweden (4), Iceland (6), Norway (7), Netherlands (9), United Kingdom (10), Luxembourg (11) and Switzerland (12). *>

<How you can call Finland clean country when it grows as a auctioneer of bribes between East and West and now sings very thin.
Island is US Carrier.
Denmark shelter for Chechen terrorists, and join Netherlands and UK colonists countries.
To call ?cleanest
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#1809 donquijote

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 02:45 AM

<But against the SUV!>

Howdy Bader
SUVs are not my pet hate, just that the SUV often tell of a lion on board.;) But I do many areas of interest which I broadly debate throughout Google and here. Here are a few...

-Healthcare
-Crime
-License to Kill (traffic laws)
-Bicycle lanes
-Independent media as opposed to commercial media
-Cooperatives
-Terrorism
-And of course, a little humor here and there.

I like debating things practical so people see real solutions to real problems. And SUVs are a problem...
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#1810 donquijote

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 02:49 AM

< LONDON - The world's largest cruise ship, Queen Mary 2, set sail for the United States on its maiden voyage Monday, carrying 2,600 passengers who paid up to $48,000.
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#1811 donquijote

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 02:57 AM

<Howdy DonQ: the thread is humming again. I liked your commen about democracy being burnt out like communism. Although it
is probably more correct to say it hasnt really been tried. We heard this about communism as well earlier. Someone said the same thing about Christianity but I cant recall the main point.
So it is all allied to half-truths etc.>

Everything under the sun where the lions can foxes can hide has been tried. The best ideas corrupted to the core. Actually the three systems you mention have their own value and can be combined to the fullest benefit of man. I mentioned the Jesuit Missions of South America having reached near Paradise on Earth. But the stupid hungry lion didn't want competition. Bad beasts. We got to smoke 'em out!

<I would be more cautious re Soros. As for Dean who he likes he is two-faced and will do/appear what ever will get votes. Anyone honest will not get a look in. I bet Soros isnt against Bush because he lost money, Bushmanship is excellent for speculation. Look at the shares that changed hands just prior to Sept11 because certain ones were in the know.>

OK, we'll assume that all saints are guilty until...
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#1812 donquijote

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 03:03 AM

<I see that only solution is strict birth control of population>

I don't think so...

John Beardmore <wookie@wookie.demon.co.uk> wrote
> I'm sure wealth has an impact on family planning, but then again, so do
> two world wars as well as contraception and religious attitudes. Id
> really want a lot of region specific data before pinning the tail on a
> single factor.

Just check at the characteristics of Scandinavian society, and you may
get a clue about the solution. Africa, on the other hand, presents the
largest population growth. Any conclusions? Perhaps poverty, education
issues?

"it remains true that one additional American typically has a larger
negative impact on the ozone layer, global warmth, and other elements
of the earth's environment than dozens of Indians and Zimbabweans put
together"

Threats to the Environment
In his concern about "a continual diminution of happiness" from
population growth, Condorcet was a pioneer in considering the
possibility that natural raw materials might be used up, thereby
making living conditions worse. In his characteristically rationalist
solution, which relied partly on voluntary and reasoned measures to
reduce the birth rate, Condorcet also envisaged the development of
less improvident technology: "The manufacture of articles will be
achieved with less wastage in raw materials and will make better use
of them."26
The effects of a growing population on the environment could be a good
deal more serious than the food problems that have received so much
attention in the literature inspired by Malthus. If the environment is
damaged by population pressures this obviously affects the kind of
life we lead, and the possibilities of a "diminution in happiness" can
be quite considerable. In dealing with this problem, we have to
distinguish once again between the long and the short run. The
short-run picture tends to be dominated by the fact that the
per-capita consumption of food, fuel, and other goods by people in
third world countries is often relatively low; consequently the impact
of population growth in these countries is not, in relative terms, so
damaging to the global environment. But the problems of the local
environment can, of course, be serious in many developing economies.
They vary from the "neighborhood pollution" created by unregulated
industries to the pressure of denser populations on rural resources
such as fields and woods.27 (The Indian authorities had to close down
several factories in and around Agra, since the facade of the Taj
Mahal was turning pale as a result of chemical pollution from local
factories.) But *it remains true that one additional American
typically has a larger negative impact on the ozone layer, global
warmth, and other elements of the earth's environment than dozens of
Indians and Zimbabweans put together*. Those who argue for the
immediate need for forceful population control in the third world to
preserve the global environment must first recognize this elementary
fact. This does not imply, as is sometimes suggested, that as far as
the global environment is concerned, population growth in the third
world is nothing to worry about. The long-run impact on the global
environment of population growth in the developing countries can be
expected to be large. As the Indians and the Zimbabweans develop
economically, they too will consume a great deal more, and they will
pose, in the future, a threat to the earth's environment similar to
that of people in the rich countries today. The long-run threat of
population to the environment is a real one.

http://mthwww.uwc.ed...hus/sen_NYR.htm
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#1813 donquijote

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 03:24 AM

What's the priority for America, exploring outer space, war, or taking
care of things right here?

HOW THE LION BENEFITS FROM THE LITTLE ANIMALS' POVERTY

One day all the little animals went up to the King of the Jungle and
complained about their poverty, and in particular about the fact that
every time, during the dry season, they had to travel long distances
to drink the precious fluid, and demanded a water well be built for
them... They cited how the resources that they contributed to the
kingdom were wasted in wars and extravagant projects to the tastes of
the King... He, however, replied with all kinds of excuses: the lack
of resources, that it wasn't a matter of him not wanting it, but that
it was a matter of "priorities" --which was one of his favorite
words...

Meanwhile, an Owl --who had very good eyes-- had been observing life
in the jungle, and thought this way: "Every time there's a dry season
the little animals must come to the little dirty waterhole where the
Lion waits for them... Had they been well fed and strong, he would
have had to run after them and even risk resistance..."

And that's how the Owl landed an important --and well paid-- post in
the brand new Astronomy Department created by the King of the Jungle
--to the effect of exploring life in other planets...

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

Meanwhile...

U.S. Advisers Call for Universal Health Care

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Saying 18,000 people die every year because
they lack health insurance, federal advisers said on Wednesday the
U.S. government must come up with universal health coverage by 2010.

The Institute of Medicine (news - web sites), an independent,
non-profit group which advises Congress and the federal government on
health matters, said taxpayers are paying for 43 million uninsured
Americans anyway -- and footing a much bigger bill than they would if
those people had decent health care.

"The president and Congress should strive to achieve universal health
coverage in the United States by 2010," the institute said in a
statement.

"Uninsured Americans get about half the medical care of those with
health insurance," it added. "As a result, they tend to be sicker and
die sooner."

The institute, one of the National Academies of Sciences, said it was
releasing the report in an attempt to influence the November
elections.

"This report appears at the beginning of an election year," institute
president Dr. Harvey Fineberg told a news conference. He said he hoped
health insurance would be a major national issue. "This report ... is
our contribution to a reinvigorated discussion," he said.

Congress has struggled with the issue for more than a decade.

more...

http://story.news.ya..._insurance_dc_2
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#1814 donquijote

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 04:01 AM

What's the priority for America?

http://engforum.prav...?threadid=54878
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#1815 Pliny

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 05:43 AM

If you really want a good perspective on what happened in Sweden to achieve negative population growth I can get an article for you. Actually here's the link.

http://www.mises.org...sp?control=1406
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#1816 Pliny

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 06:04 AM

"This contradiction has been the driving force behind the recent rebellion against the modern client state, a rebellion which started (among the Scandinavian countries) in Denmark and Norway through the electoral success of the anti-state Progress parties, and which has now spread to Sweden. Just last month, the Swedish Social Democrats suffered a major political defeat, losing power in national elections to a Center-Right coalition, bound together by a common pledge to cut back the welfare state. Particularly startling was the emergence of two new parties, which won blocks of seats in Sweden's Riksdag (or Parliament) for the first time."

Getting close to 2000 posts on this thread - is that the target?
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#1817 Bader

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 08:24 AM

evolution has the answer if we are patient enough to wait a million years and the human will lose the ability to procreate so easily.
How I see it happening will be first we will slowly develop a microchip within our bodies which will corelate with all other microchips through the select superhumans who develop a superchip that enable them to compute the total possible
birth-models defined by the combinations of genes and chromosones which translate as potential so-in-sos and thus
the combined computation decided on will transmit back to the microchips so that only those who get a "hit" in the planned
future will actually be able to fertize an egg.

But unfortunately those who think they know better will not have the faith or patience and thus will try and intervene and bring something similar to pass and cause all sorts of revolt.
I am thinking of people like Desmond Morris, the Rockefeller Foundation and UNESCO.

Sorry WOJ but MR Morris says in effect there is no Lion or jungle
kingdom of the lion.
Talk about the long term threat to the environment and birth control etc is merely punishing the victims for the dynamics of the Jungle kingdom.
Freeing children from ourselves is one of the goals of UNESCO.
The Market model will cover the threat of natural national increase
by importing other nations chidren, especially non-christian children into christian countries to breed out white people and
end culture influenced by christian values and beliefs.

It is the money system behind capitalism that creates conditions that demand collective responsibility and safety nets etc which make people more dependant on the state. Then when the state
public sector adopts the market model it then goes down the paths of preventive authoritarianism in the interest of efficiency and economic expedience- ie from the benevelent giant to the giant dictator.
As I have said before this is why Marx never exposed the
exploitating debt finance system because he saw the end result of the dynamics would be more subtle and finite in the subjugation of all under a bureaucracy govt that had no
responsibity to the public. Pure debt and bookkeeping would replace gulags and secret police.
What better way to prevent an alternative to the capitalism we know under the debt money system than to create a monster
opposing (Hegelian dialectic construct) it making it look good. Yet we are heading for the same, more subtle and finite and technical- microchip- man made evolution.

Soro is no saint. He is merely buying democracy with money
which has corrupted the greatest free country in the history of the world. How many people did he destroy getting the money
to better society in his view. This kind of meglamania is what the
various Foundations are on about dictating what is knowledge,
politically correct, social conditioning, turning politicians into prostitutes, think tanks etc. Countries, cities, streets, universities etc have been named after them. And thanks to them we now have to become nuetered economic digits.
How these people get rich to then buy control and fame is much the same as what GIJ said about the cost of re-inventing Iraq-
it will be paid for by Iraqi oil.

THe Amish society should make a good study in regards the role of competition, cooperative principles, ownership and sharing results, and most of all the financial basis.
No debt would mean no false drive to compete to pay debt and survive in a starved cashflow system.
If they all own and share the results then there is no false
dialectic strife between capital and labour sporned by the debt system. They would be more productive and no hole in the pocket as with debt., and thus their prices would be lower because no financial costs in prices.

SUVs: I was just joking DonQ.
SUVs threaten cars, cars threaten motorbikes, motorbikes threaten bikes, bikes threaten pedestrians, pedestrians threaten ants and ants threaten the pantry so leave all as it is to protect the pantry our life food sourse.
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#1818 Guest_Vadim Gorshenin_*

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 08:24 AM

Russia is better place today than 10 years past.
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#1819 Guest_Vadim Gorshenin_*

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 08:26 AM

testing bold testing font
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#1820 Guest_Vadim Gorshenin_*

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 08:28 AM

testing colors
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