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Anybody seen bin Laden????


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#61 AmericanJoe

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Posted 06 February 2003 - 06:18 AM

Originally posted by ImperalistSwine
"Points" = verifiable facts; rational arguments; grounded on reality, intelligent, informed, unbiased, the thoughts of someone who is seeking truth.

Example: "America is evil." This is not a point. It is an assertion. It is also a meaningless assertion devoid of facts or rational argument.

"America is not a fair broker in the Middle East." This is a starting point but it also requires supporting data. Perhaps this is a true statement but it needs to be fleshed out with facts and conclusions rooted in reality and common sense.
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Now why don't you try again and try to form your thoughts in such a way I can respond to you? I won't dismiss your argument out of hand. But I want to see an intelligent argument to respond to.



I've been making my points all through this thread, but you've been ignoring them. Dolfin has answered them, but you apparently lack the intellectual capacity for reasoned debate.
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#62 Floatingsky

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Posted 06 February 2003 - 06:42 AM

If your reference about "opulant" digs is some attempt at questioning my bravery under conflct, don't you think you should know who you are talking to before making an assumption either way? What do you know about me? You seem to assume that because I am asking for peace that I have never fought, but I would say that your apparent eagerness for war would indicate that it is you who has never been involved in real warfare.



Sorry, AJ. That was way over the top. Please forgive this former soldier. I, also want peace. The options seem limited, however, to appeasement or at least the tangible threat of war.

I may be naive, but nobody can convince me the Iraqi people aren't sick to death of this guy.

If I am right, there will be little bloodshed. What rational human being would die to support Saddam's regime? Especially, with autonomy guaranteed in the aftermath.

All of this would just be a pipe dream, but...There is absolutely nothing we can do to make the world hate us more. They are killing us now on our own soil. We are The Great Satan. Anything we do must be a trick. Anything we say must be a lie, and all our motives must be ulterior.

The world is upside down; Ghaddafi chairs the Commision on Human Rights, British and Japanese students call us imperialists, the French say it's about oil when they're the ones with the billion dollar contracts. The Germans want peace.

What do do, now?

Shouldn't we just kick this guy's ***, if for no other reason than to stop the dog and pony show?

Maybe we should just issue a statement to the entire world:
We're sorry...for everything. We're going home now, never to leave our shores again. Last one standing gets the oil.

Maybe if we reinstalled the Taliban as rulers of Afghanistan, the world would say, "You know, they've changed, they're not so bad after all."

What a good PR move it would be to assist in the reunification of Korea...by leaving. They'd like us then, right?

We could unliberate France...you know, give it back to the Germans. Then the French would be our friends again, and the trains would run on time.

We could unfree Nelson Mandela, then he'd be talking about how smart we are, and how we "think right".

As Martin Short would say, "Is it me, I mean us?...It's them, right?"

What to do now?
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#63 Gandu

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Posted 06 February 2003 - 04:40 PM

>I may be naive, but nobody can convince me the Iraqi people aren't sick to death of this guy. <

So that is your reason to kill millions of them?

I see it now, american show the world what it is to be free of worries of life.
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#64 Missouri Mule

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Posted 06 February 2003 - 05:00 PM

AJ: I actually waded through your silly original post to see if there was anything worth responding to. Couldn't find anything. You throw in a few ten dollar words to impress, make a lot of unfounded assertions but when your post is boiled down to its essential elements it says this. America is bad. We can't prove that Osama is dead, therefore he must be alive. Don't kill Iraqi children. And then you quote a bunch of famous America bashers and their predictable attacks. blah, blah, blah.:rolleyes:

You're not terribly bright. You aren't particularly informed. You certainly don't rely on facts. You let others do your thinking and then you regurgitate it here to impress the equally intellectually challenged choir of blame America firsters. You'll be in good company.
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#65 AmericanJoe

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Posted 06 February 2003 - 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Floatingsky
Sorry, AJ. That was way over the top. Please forgive this former soldier. I, also want peace. The options seem limited, however, to appeasement or at least the tangible threat of war.

I may be naive, but nobody can convince me the Iraqi people aren't sick to death of this guy.

If I am right, there will be little bloodshed. What rational human being would die to support Saddam's regime? Especially, with autonomy guaranteed in the aftermath.

All of this would just be a pipe dream, but...There is absolutely nothing we can do to make the world hate us more. They are killing us now on our own soil. We are The Great Satan. Anything we do must be a trick. Anything we say must be a lie, and all our motives must be ulterior.

The world is upside down; Ghaddafi chairs the Commision on Human Rights, British and Japanese students call us imperialists, the French say it's about oil when they're the ones with the billion dollar contracts. The Germans want peace.

What do do, now?

Shouldn't we just kick this guy's ***, if for no other reason than to stop the dog and pony show?

Maybe we should just issue a statement to the entire world:
We're sorry...for everything. We're going home now, never to leave our shores again. Last one standing gets the oil.

Maybe if we reinstalled the Taliban as rulers of Afghanistan, the world would say, "You know, they've changed, they're not so bad after all."

What a good PR move it would be to assist in the reunification of Korea...by leaving. They'd like us then, right?

We could unliberate France...you know, give it back to the Germans. Then the French would be our friends again, and the trains would run on time.

We could unfree Nelson Mandela, then he'd be talking about how smart we are, and how we "think right".

As Martin Short would say, "Is it me, I mean us?...It's them, right?"

What to do now?



The difference between you and Imperialist Swill is bewilderingly complete. These are all cogent arguments against my position. These are arguments I can at least digest and think about.

I understand your frustration, and whenever I see arguments like that I think of that Canadian guy, what's his name, Gordon Sinclair maybe? I can't remember, but he did a nice song about the good old US of A.

I am sure you are right about the Iraqi people being desperate to get rid of Saddam. If he steps outside while the missiles are falling he will be strung up like Cousescu of Romania was. Like Mussolini was. Like Hitler should have been.

The problem we face in the world today is that the rest of the world is frightened of us, and envious of our power and economic might. I believe this means we need to rethink how we approach the world. Becoming MORE belligerent is not the answer. Because we are the last superpower, we need to take a more maternal approach to the world's problems. Note I say Maternal, not Paternal.

It's honestly too late now to turn back. We pretty much have cornered ourselves into attacking Iraq, no matter what some of us may feel about it. Backing down now will only strengthen Osama bin Laden's hand.

I think the point everyone is missing is that as the world's superpower, we need to rethink foreign policy on a massive scale. You're right that people don't appreciate us, and if we dramatically increase our foreign aid that won't change. But as the world's most powerful nation we have to simply shrug it off and carry on. A sane future for the world requires that its one superpower be a benevolent force.

Rather than arm the world, we need to feed it. it's really that simple for me. We should maintain a big military budget, continue weapons programs, because it's a dangerous world full of people who hate us. But we need to re-examine the way we influence events. We won't win everyone over, but we'll win some over. And I believe the world would be a much better place.
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#66 AmericanJoe

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Posted 06 February 2003 - 09:07 PM

Originally posted by ImperalistSwine
AJ: I actually waded through your silly original post to see if there was anything worth responding to. Couldn't find anything. You throw in a few ten dollar words to impress, make a lot of unfounded assertions but when your post is boiled down to its essential elements it says this. America is bad. We can't prove that Osama is dead, therefore he must be alive. Don't kill Iraqi children. And then you quote a bunch of famous America bashers and their predictable attacks. blah, blah, blah.:rolleyes:

You're not terribly bright. You aren't particularly informed. You certainly don't rely on facts. You let others do your thinking and then you regurgitate it here to impress the equally intellectually challenged choir of blame America firsters. You'll be in good company.


Imperialist Swill: It's probably the ten dollar words that threw you off. When you go get an education, come back, and we'll talk.
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#67 AmericanJoe

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Posted 06 February 2003 - 09:13 PM

Originally posted by d0lfins0ng
WASHINGTON (Feb. 6) - .....
Copyright 2003 The Associated Press.

*Don't fall over from leaning too far left. AJ :rolleyes:



Gosh, d0lfins0ng, I'm beginning to think you think I don't read the news.

You know the difference between someone who leans left who falls over and someone who leans right? The person who leans right and falls over leaves collateral damage, and the person who leans left leaves seeds of growth.
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#68 AmericanJoe

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Posted 06 February 2003 - 09:15 PM

Originally posted by d0lfins0ng
THE GREAT TERROR

I'll be waiting patiently.[/I] :rolleyes:



And I'm waiting patiently for this evidence to be presented to the UN. I didn't see this in Powell's presentation. Did I miss it?

Regardless, I have to leave this with a question. Are you in favor of a unilateral strike by the US against Iraq? Or are you in favor of getting UN approval?
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#69 Floatingsky

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Posted 06 February 2003 - 10:43 PM

Dolfinsong, I used to live in Virginia and remember the bumper stickers, 'Virginia is for lovers'.

It is obvious to any informed and rational person that we are at war already. It is also obvious that the goal of our enemies is the destruction of Israel and the United States.

Tony Blair and Jack Straw, as well as Putin are portrayed as lackeys of Bush. What a laugh! How convenient this perception is to the people who fostered this notion and fed it hook, line and sinker to imbeciles like this;

So that is your reason to kill millions of them?



The voices of Iraqi defectors are ignored. It is estimated that Saddam has killed millions. This, of course, is inconvenient to the position taken by many here. The voice of Colin Powell who, very recently advocated the creation of a Palestinian State, is drowned out by a cacaphony of jeers from the likes of Syria, whose minister openly advocated the disarmament, hence destruction of Israel.

We are in a self preservation mode. What is the agenda of Saddam Hussein? What is the agenda of Al Quaeda, Islamic Jihad, Hamas...etc.?

AJ, your bleating about the "RepubliKlans" is pathetic and reveals your lack of a cogent argument, as well as your conspicuous lack of a proposed solution.

I look forward to more dolphin songs.
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#70 Floatingsky

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Posted 07 February 2003 - 12:03 AM

AJ, I posted my last one while you were posting to me. I welcome your dissent, especially when stated eloquently, without the jingoism; eg RepubliKlans. Your last post I very much enjoyed. I hope we can have fierce debate without becoming enemies.
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#71 Floatingsky

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Posted 07 February 2003 - 06:49 AM

Hi Dolfinsong. I was born in DC, lived in Arlington until I was 2. By matrilieal kinship reckoning, I am a Texan, and have lived here most of my life. Later, I spent over 4 years in and around Charlottesville, in Albemarle County. For most of that time I lived in an old frame house at Lost Valley Farm, 190 acres of forest, save 7 acres of hay for Commander Dent's (my landlord)thoroughbreds. Pigeontop Mountain was in my backyard, with George Washiington National Forest bordering the property line. Commander Dent lived at Polaris Farm and couldn't imagine why anyone would want to live in that old house so he rented it to me for $125 a month. If it was too cold to bathe in the Mormon's River, (with Dr. Bronner's) I had to drive to Charlottesville to the Gym at UVA for a shower, about 22 miles. The house had wood stoves only, for heat. My memories of that place are fond.

You will certainly enjoy 'Startide Rising'. It is the middle book of a trilogy called, 'The Uplift Wars'. But not to worry, I read it first, too. Each book stands alone, and 'Startide Rising' is undoubtedly the best.

You will now learn dolphin trinary, a musical language of song and verse.
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#72 AmericanJoe

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Posted 07 February 2003 - 07:59 PM

Originally posted by Floatingsky
AJ, I posted my last one while you were posting to me. I welcome your dissent, especially when stated eloquently, without the jingoism; eg RepubliKlans. Your last post I very much enjoyed. I hope we can have fierce debate without becoming enemies.



Nah, you seem cool. A RepubliKlan is basically, to me, a conservative racist, btw, not a typical Republican. I have a lot of Republican friends. We are absolutely vicious with each other, but we have fun. Imprerialist Swine seems like a reactionary to me, so he gets treated as such.

People who know me know that I listen to well-formed debate. I'm not at all convinced we should be attacking Saddam, but I do understand the sentiment for creating consensus within the UN that we do so. And I reserve the right to change my mind when the evidence becomes more convincing. God knows, I think Saddam should go. I'd be all in favor of some covert operation.

And I don't like George Bush -- I don't trust him, and I think he's destroying our economy. However, when push comes to shove, when and if our country comes under attack, I stand with him because he's our prez. I don't have to like him to do that.
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#73 fu2

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Posted 07 February 2003 - 10:06 PM

Yes I think I know where he is,

He currently works as a disco jokey in the US Gestapo (AKA Homeland Security), turning the "security ligts" to red, orange and all this other nuances ;)
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#74 Gandu

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Posted 07 February 2003 - 10:36 PM

FOX News ran a story shortly after 9-11 in which a US Government official admitted that there is evidence linking 9-11 to someone other than Arab Muslims, but that the US Government has classified this evidence.

Guess thats that, osama is now classifed.
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#75 Floatingsky

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Posted 07 February 2003 - 11:08 PM

Hi, AJ. I am not a Republican or a Democrat. I am glad that we have Bush instead of Gore, however. The only one who really scares me is Ashcroft, who is busy prosecuting growers of medicinal marijuana when he should be tracking down terrorists.

Probably the fundamental difference between our positions is that I believe we already are at war.

The world is not used to the straight talk of Bush, Rumsfeld, Powell, Blair and Straw. The hue and cry aginst unilateral action, and for consensus is lead by nations with vested interests, and or domestic political considerations, and is anything but altruistic. As soon as the French are sure that their oil contracts are in danger of becoming null and void, they will quit acting unilaterally.

The Germans must keep their promises of pacifism to the German people. This is as it should be. There is right now, a German Chemical unit consisting of 59 soldiers on the ground in Kuwaiit. This kind of support will, I believe, be consistent with the wishes of the German people, while showing solidarity with the Free World.

Ultimately, I believe the Chinese and the Russians will have to lead the way in disarming North Korea. That is like a hornet's nest on their back porch. They will continue to bellow until someone smacks then in the mouth.

More later....
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#76 AmericanJoe

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 01:34 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by d0lfins0ng
[B]...and Clinton had noting to do with destroying our economy? Sweetheart, It doesn
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#77 AmericanJoe

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 01:43 AM

Originally posted by Floatingsky


Probably the fundamental difference between our positions is that I believe we already are at war.



No, I know we're at war with Al Queda. I have serious doubts of a genuine Al-Queda-Iraq connection. It's much more likely that whatever elements of Al Queda are in Iraq were planted there by bin Laden to deflect attention towards Iraq and precipitate a larger war.

bin Laden attempted to get Pakistan and India into a war by sending his proxies in to bomb the Indian parliament. He failed, but it looks like we're walking right into this trap. He's a brilliant enemy, and he is, in my mind the enemy. Saddam has been neutralized. We need to finish off Al Queda, but doing so will not have the glamour of the newest cruise missile technology.

Whatever happened to the early pronouncements that this would be an unglamourous war? A war that would mean we would have to drop small numbers of troops into numerous coutnries and take out Al Queda piece by piece?

I love fireworks as much as the next guy. Watching the skies of Bagdhad fill with the arcs of cruise missiles on CNN is captivating. But since it's TV, it's easy to miss how ugly and evil war is.

Call this a strategic dispute if it makes it more palatable. I don't think it's good strategy to engage in a blitzkrieg against Iraq. I think we need to go back to the intent we had right after 9-11, and hunt Al Queda down all over the world. And we need to combine that with an effort at reaching the hearts and minds of the Arab people, and help nurture struggling economies. That will help remove some of the harbors of animiosity that exist in every Arab nation. And it is a policy that all moderate Arabs would embrace and understand.
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#78 AmericanJoe

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 01:49 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by d0lfins0ng
[B]...and Clinton had noting to do with destroying our economy? Sweetheart, It doesn
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#79 AmericanJoe

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 04:53 PM

Originally posted by d0lfins0ng
AJ dearest, you are waving a political banner. I am just showing you how ridiculous this all sounds.

I am no more a Republican than a Democrat, and you know it.

Still, you choose to ignore ol' Slick Willie's administration is responsible for creative bookkeeping in many areas of the government, including illegal contributions to the Demonic party. Can you possibly forget all those last minute pardons? How many "gates" involved the Clintons? Who cannot practice law in the Supreme Court, hmmmmmmmm? What did Clinton do to screw Africa, hmmmmm? Short-term memory, Dear?



The "gates" were Republican concoctions that, after exhaustive investigation and millions of dollars, were incconclusive to the point of what should have been embarrassment. It amounted to a Republican conspiracy to dethrone a legitmately elected president. This is typical of Republicans, and it's why they are so despised in some circles. Not the every day man on the street Republican, who is typically simply blind to the shenanigans of the politicians themselves, but rather, I'm talking here about Republican political leaders.

We begin with the Kennedy assasination, for which there is strong evidence for a conspiracy among the Republican elite of the time. Unproven, of course, but the evidence is there.

Jimmy Carter was elected and somehow managed to remain in power without Republican intervention, probably because, as lovable as he may be, he was a pretty bad president overall, and the Republicans knew his administration wouldn't last.

Then came Clinton, and an absolute obsession on the part of Republicans to drive him from office that began almost the moment he stepped into the White House. All of those "gates" resulted in exactly how many charges against either Clinton? I'll go look it up. The information must be somewhere. Oh wait. Here it is. I got it from the Washington Times, that beloved conservative mouthpiece of DC:

WASHINGTON, March 20 (UPI) -- The final Whitewater report was released by the independent counsel's office Wednesday, ending an 8-year investigation whose many phases cost the taxpayer a total of $70 million.

Final verdict: No crimes committed by President Clinton or Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y.


I particularly liked the "ending an 8-year investigation whose many phases cost the taxpayer a total of $70 million" part of this story.

And, please, don't throw the Monical Lewinsky thing at me. The only people who should judge other people for sexual conduct are people who can look themselves in the mirror and say they've never done the same thing. And even then, personal affairs should not really be part of our evaluation of a nation's leaders. If it was, many other presidents, from Jefferson (who seemed to have an affinity for slave girls) on down would have been ousted.

If Clinton had simply not lied about it while staring America in the face, people would have let the matter drop. I was as disappointed in him as others, and lost a lot of respect for him because of it. But I also understand that it may have been the result of being hounded for five years by Republicans who wouldn't, for one moment, just accept the fact that he was our elected president. If I constantly had dogs nipping at my heels, who knows how I would have reacted.


Final verdict: No crimes committed by President Clinton or Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y.


But we digress. The thread of this is: Anybody seen bin Laden? The subtitle, if there was one (and I should know since I started this thread) should be: Why is George Bush diverting America's attention away from the fact that bin Laden is still on the loose? Why are we not extracting El Queda cells from other parts of the world? Indonesia, Yemen, maybe even North Korea?

In fact, I believe it is fair to even dare ask, "Why are we losing this war, and what must we do to turn the tide back in our favor?"
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#80 AmericanJoe

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Posted 10 February 2003 - 02:22 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by d0lfins0ng
[B]"...please, don't throw the Monical Lewinsky thing at me. "

Did I? When we liberate the Iraqi people, all the evidence you were so insistent upon having before we enter Iraq will be revealed. Do recall, an expert card player does not tip his/her hand regardless of the outcry. I am sure we shall be uncovering massive graves, along with Saddam's A-Q connections, the unfortunates who were tortured, the stockpiles of WMD, and a few other things of which the public was unaware. At such point, you can expect to hear the voices of the Iraqi people speak freely about Saddam's defunct regime. You will also witness a Democratic Iraqi party take over. That is if they can get Turkey off their back. All these things shall be revealed while you lick the egg off your hubris Democratic party face.

Perhaps you might want to think about taking up a collection, and heading over to Iraq where you can join a few other
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