What if the US became like Nazi Germany?
Posted 06 February 2003 - 10:57 PM
my deepest condoleances for the loss of your eye-sight. This must truly be a horrible handicap, espacially for a great political observer like yourselve.
But let me help you visualize something... a stable, peaceful economy in the middle-east, with brand new houses, schools, infrastructure and hospitals, matching that of most eastern-european countries. Not a democracy, but still one of the best countries to live in when being an arab.
This was Iraq prior to the brutal Allied attacks in 1991, and the boycots which set the country back a 100 year in time.
In the coming attacks, the US will flatten all that remained of this once proud nation. Iraq will be turned into one giant parking lot, where the employees of Unocal store their SUV's.
Thank you, mr Ross, for making all this possible.
Posted 06 February 2003 - 11:42 PM
But how to stop it? Stopping fascism is not quite like stopping a schoolyard bully. Usually, the 'picked upon weaklings' (Iraq,North Korea, Iran) are nearly powerless to stop the U.S.. Russia, China, Japan, France, Germany, Israel are not so powerless. But could they dissolve their differences if a Fascist attempt was made to colonize the entire world?
Let us hope so. In the meanwhile there must be something we each can do to stop fascism internationally together. Recently, I have been reading two excellent books:
(1) The Forbidden Truth
(2) Dollars for Terror
They trace the support of radical Islamic terror to Saudi Arabia, BCCI, and American Intelligence. From their references one can hunt down relationships between Saudi Banks and Texas Banks. The more clear the relationships, the more open the 'secret players' the more one sees how a small group of extremists from any religion can be manipulated and financed to create world wide terror.
Fascism feeds off hate and division: Worker A v. Worker B, skilled labor v. unskilled labor, black v. white, proletariat v. middle class, communist v. capitalist and now the world v. Islam. On this Vladimir Putin is right. We must avoid believing in "the clash of cultures" and seek out who is financing terror, who is shipping the terrorist's arms and cash. As CCW says here in the States "Exposure is the death knell of the new world order." Less hate and extremism would help as well.
"The only thing we have to fear" said FDR quoting Thoreau "is fear itself". Too bad he was wrong: death camps, genocide, nuclear war are the fruits of Fascism.
Posted 06 February 2003 - 11:47 PM
It is my oppinion that we already are. Why do posters keep referring to 9-11? Iraq has nothing to do with that. It's like blaming them for American slavery. "Lets get rid of Saddam befor he brings back slavery!", or someting ells we don't like.
The fact remains that George Bush has done a lousy job arguing for a war with Iraq. And it seems that only him and his minions are the ones arguing for it.
At the end of the day, it is always about oil. They attacked Afganistan because the Talaban woudn't do a pipe line deal for Bush and Enron, not because of any terrorists. I remember Bush saying ANY nation that sheltered Binladin would be at war with the Unided States. Well, Binladen is in Pakistan, why don't we attack Pakistan? Why aren't we bombing the hell out of their people? Because Pakistan is on the receving end of the L.N.G. pipe line that is going to start up at Baku, run through Afganistan and end up in Pakistan. Again, all of this is over OIL!
I never thought I would see the day that I was so ashamed of someting my government was about to do.
What if America was a fascist country? It is a fascist country. We have no Constitution, no seperation of powers, no Democracy. Only one all powerful dictateor, and his name is George Bush.
God save America! God save us all! DOWN WITH THE ARISTOCRATS! DOWN WITH THEIR WAR! John.
Posted 07 February 2003 - 12:14 AM
Probably by companies that will be on the bid lists to re-build Iraq at U.S. tax payers expense, and oil related companies.
He is attempting to play out his agenda now, the 911 attacks surprised him and caused an unwanted delay toward his agenda. And that according to my personal speculation is why the Al Quaeda orginization has been such a low priority.
Posted 07 February 2003 - 03:56 AM
Uhh, a little history check is in order.
Coyote, remember that the West African Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade, which started in the early 1500's and went until the late 1800's claimed something like over thirty million lives. The country that started this slave trade was Portugal. Soon, most Western European countries got involved, and then the United States joined it when it became a nation.
For its first 80 years, the official position of the United States Government was to uphold the Union at all costs, and that meant appeasing the South, which meant not only upholding the institution of Slavery, but also chasing, tracking, and capturing 'fugitives' to return to their masters. The United States was part of an insitution that killed millions.
Then, you got to add to that the stated US government policy of exterminating America's native inhabitants, from coast to coast. We already had our generals like Heinrick Himmler.
Read: Custer. Does anyone remember Custer?
And if you add to that the possibility that US scientists may have manufactured AIDS (At least, they were trying to make AIDS-like viruses, which was the stated goal of a House Appropriations Committee in 1970) then if that is true, then you're talking another 30 million. At least.
Now combine that with Prescott Bush, George Bush's grandfather's support of Adolph Hitler, through his Union Banking corporation, and also other major corporate sponsorship of Nazi Germany, including Ford, and you begin to see that countries are not so isolated and independent as you thought, but are in fact very dependent and interconnected.
I live in the US, and I want to say that I love this country first and foremost because it is my home, and I love the fact that you can meet people from all around the world here. But I have no illusions about this country's past, and nor do I have any illusions about the govrenment's wrongdoing.
If any Americans want to call me a traitor here, let me just say that I am grateful to be in a rich country like this, rather than starving in a place like North Korea. Is life good for Americans?
Yes. Absolutely (Not necessarily for Black males, that is)
But so was life for Ancient Roman citizens. Inside Rome itself, there was a degree of tolerance, freedom, and affluence felt no where else in that world. Yet Rome enslaved the whole known world at one time. The very origin of the term 'decimate' came from Rome, where Roman soldiers, in their occupation of other countries, would kill every tenth person to terrorize the population into submission. The US does this through puppet governments, and US-friendly agents, such as:
The Saudi Royal Family.
The Shaw of Iran
Right Wing governments in Central America
Mobutu in Congo/Zaire
Even, at one time, the Taliban in Afghanistan, who Colin Powell gave a multi-million dollar aid package to even up to May 2001!
I just want to keep things in perspective. The more we expose what the problem is, the more we can fix it.
The fact is, the American Constitution was never valid. Not as long as one third of the population was enslaved.
And now, there is evidence that slavery is coming back to America, through the privatization of the prisons. Instead of asking 'what should we do if America becomes like Nazi Germany,' maybe we should be asking 'what if America reverts to it's former slave-holding plantation system?' The Corrections industry is not only threatening America, but also the world. This is a major growth industry, guys. It is very much a part of Globalization.
So what should we do? Maybe a ressurection of the Abolitionist Movement is in order, this time for the whole globe. As for tactics, we can be as subtle as Harriet Beecher Stowe, or as militant as John Brown
Posted 07 February 2003 - 05:47 AM
Originally posted by coyote
Excuse me, America is buying oil from Iraq and Iran.
If Bush or anyone turns America into Nazi germany, there would be another revolutionary or civil war.
Bush is only pretending to be king, he knows he is running out of time before the next election, thats why he is in a rush.
I generally dont post on this side of the forum, so excuse my interuption.
I totally agree with what Coyote has to say, the American people will turn around on their heads to get back what they cherish. Their dignaty and freedom.
Regardess if the rest of the world dis's the US, they love them-selves the way they are...not the way Bush wants them to be (assuming it did turn to Nazi state). This is why Americans are americans and will have their own revolution to turn it around-we know that there is enough guns in the country!
Perhaps this is what should happen to the Mid East and anywhere else the US occupies, or threatens, or demonises (if this were to actually happen;) ).
Posted 07 February 2003 - 07:16 AM
We're not Nazi yet but you wouldn't know it from watching Fox News. Don't hear the SS at the door.
GW Bush is a president of marginal popularity who would be at 30% approval if not for 9-11. Now you guys (Osama and such), you do that ten more times we will turn fascist. Just like the Israelis.
After the Cold War ended we've required a whole series of foreign devils to justify the military budget and to keep the population in line. Problem is they get less and less believable all the time. War on Drugs? Panama? Gimme a break.
Now Osama and the gang, we believe he's a real threat. He proved it. Saddam, I'm just not convinced. Iraq has been on the Bush agenda for 12 years. The proliferation of weapons of all kinds is a threat. US, Russian, French, everybody's weapons. I'm with Bush's tax cuts. We need to starve this military machine.
If the US turns fascist, I go to Canada. You guys, Russia, China, have nukes. Der Fuhrer can't get away with too much. You'll never invade conventionally, look how tough it was just to get across the English Channel. (with a nod to our Russian friends and apologies about the late Second Front).
Posted 07 February 2003 - 08:08 AM
"I'm with Bush's tax cuts. We need to starve this military machine. "
I've got news for you: the military spending is on full speed, like a bullet train steaming through the bank. But Bush wants to cut taxes. So where is the money going to come from?
You got it: The Federal Reserve.
The US Elite is going to BORROW money from their rich, European banker friends that own the Federal Reserve. And don't think there isn't going to be a hefty interest!
And who do you think is going to pay this interest?
You got it: The TAXPAYERS!!!
In the next administration, which will probably be Democratic, the President will, like Gray Davis, make an announcement that we need to get the debt down. The deficit will be out of control. He will then raise taxes like a bat out of hell raising a stink. At the same time, this Democrat will throw out a few biscuits to the poor to look good, all the while cutting the most essential social programs like Medicare.
It's happening right here in California. Clinton was a forebear of the New Democrats, Gray Davis is taking New Democratism to a higher level, and wait until you see what the next President does.
Here come the New Improved Democrats, guys!!!
In support of the Death Penalty and More Prisons!
Yea, I have seen it.
Posted 07 February 2003 - 08:24 AM
Good on you, mate!
Yeah, I know, I'm an OLD Democrat, but I despair of the federal government achieving anything positive and am certain of it doing something destructive. Especially in Republican or New Democrat hands. So as with the Hippocratic oath or something: "First, do no harm".
This is 180 degrees from where I was the years ago, but whack the fed budget and you can raise state taxes to do what's needed. If Texas turns into a cesspit (or did it already?) people can leave. State legislatures are easier to reform or influence.
State Attorney's-general can sue energy companies or revoke their corporate charters. You know what I mean. Gray Davis is a Republicrat just like Bill Clinton. In fact there ain't nobody in the Democrat party I have much hope for, now Al's out of it.
I see you're in my time zone, not many others still awake. I think the Pacific Confederacy ought to just secede.
Actually if we'd just let the South do it, we wouldn't be in this fix.
Posted 07 February 2003 - 03:14 PM
While you are paralyzed with the guilt you enjoy keeping, you will probably believe anything, including funny leftist propaganda math, and theories that make you feel like a god responsible for disease.
Too bad the soviet union is gone, because that leaves you with no place to hold dear. So it looks like you will have to stay in California and believe goofy sh#t. Are you among the Californians who think they saw a purple ray of light hit the space shuttle?
Posted 07 February 2003 - 04:35 PM
In terms of its definition, the term has turned into a buzz word for hate and it has nothing to do with the functions of nationalism or socialism. In German, Nazionalsimus and Socialisimus are the long and short of nationalism and socialism. Almost every country and its people are nationialistic and almost every country has introduced social programs for everyone necessary for their protection. So, as far as I am concerned, every country, by this term, is a NAZI country. Then what exactly are you talking about??
If its bad behaviour toward groups or races we are talking about, most countries behave poorly toward other races. It is called being ethnocentric. People and countries don't like other races in their midsts. When they practice discrimination in law or in social environments, they are called NAZIs. But once again, we seem to regard a country like Canada that obliterated its indian population as enlightened while the Jews in Palestine are regarded as True NAZIs.
I suggest you follow the laws and witness how which country is violating them and how international law is being broken by countries. The US is a proven criminal and murderer and was more criminal than even Hitler. They are also adept at concealing their crimes through propoganda and brainwashing of the people. More than that, many sad sack governments are bribed by money and loan guarantees in order to obliterate any of there senses of right and wrong. In short, these lackeys have vision and morals that are obliterated by payoffs and profit. But we groundlings see the truth and must deal with the consequences. Whether the country is enlightened or not, we must stick to basics and stop using labels.
The Israeli government is the same as the US and a coconspirator in murder not only of the palestinians but of the state. Whether either of these countries is what you call NAZI or totalitarian is irrelevant. These countries need to be condemned for there crimes, not because they are NAZIs. Simply put, Bush is a war criminal as is Sharon. No other label need be attached. If people start to argue differently they are either idiots or coconspirators in the crime. Sadaam was a war criminal but he was a coconspirator in a criminal act against Iran and Kuwait while America was the principal criminal in those crimes. I wish people would stop using the label and focus on the crimes of these governments. They are far more eggregious than any label you can attach. It is to these crimes we must focus and not try to figure out if america is or isn't a NAZI state.
John Brown tried to stop the criminals in america. Look what they did to him. They hanged him. Still, somehow he has reincarnated to give us his understanding. Good. I can't keep my focus. Good Byesies.
Posted 07 February 2003 - 06:31 PM
To say exterminated is to imply innocense was robbed, and two parties were not fighting, but only one party was perpetrator and one party victim. If I attacked you with a weapon for example, and it resulted in you killing me, a leftist politico who envied you would express it as you exterminated me without cause or reason, you were both judge and juror. What gives you the right to assume such power?
But a regular person would describe it with some amount of truth.
Slavery was not started by portugal.
Slavery was already within the tribes of Africa, Australia, and the western hemisphere. Slavery was within the Roman empire, Hebrews in Egypt. The truth is slavery was the darkness of humanity, until it began evolving into freedom in Europe and the western hemisphere. Although slavery is currently in existence in some muslim countries.
And false numbers blended with a smudge of truth will give a propaganda artist just the fuel he can spoon feed to a gullible leftist, who will be greatful for it.
American black muslims claim, 400 million Africans were enslaved.
Well, the current population of African Americans is only about 12% of the population. They have been multiplying at a factor of 5 or 6 every 20 years, so I choose to think someone is using propaganda, which causes me to be suspicious of their reasoning.
Posted 07 February 2003 - 07:14 PM
As for America becoming some sort of absolute totalitarian state, I think this will become the case more and more as the us gov opens up more and more fronts on their war against other countries controlling oil. The us gov. will need to mobolize the entire country into a state of "total war" to get the man power and production needed to undertake such a "project".
As for us here in America, we can only expect a reduction in rights and liberties, and an increase in terror attacks in response to the actions of our money/power/resource addicted government abroad.
This imperial game has been played out several times in history, and not one time has it succeded. This time will be no different.
Posted 08 February 2003 - 02:43 AM
You wrote:"American Indians: It was never US government policy to exterminate them, although individuals who had been victimized by their raids would undoubtedly feel differently." Actually, I have US ARMY WAR DEPARTMENT REPORTS OF COMMANDERS to Jefferson Davis, 1850, and he to them where the policy was one of genocide. This was a secret policy carried out into the 20th century. Custer or Plains Custard was on one such killing party when he found himself boxed.
Posted 08 February 2003 - 05:06 AM
Amazing! The only country in the world which didn't try to kill off or destroy the culture of the indigenous peoples. I would write to the newspapers informing them of this miracle.
We here in Australia have our dirty little secret regarding the official genocide of the firstborn .
May I suggest you pop along to Barnes & Noble's website, or even Amazon, and type in the name Dee Brown you will be amazed where your search takes you from there. Ward Churchill is another name that should give you a lot of links.
Sorry that I've burst your Cosy little bubble regarding American history, but well, we all have to acknowledge unpleasant truths eventually.
Posted 08 February 2003 - 07:49 AM
The US had some of these features in its expansionist phase particularly the aggression and the genocide policy (implicit if not official). But this was a long time ago and we like to think we don't support those things now except in Colombia for instance. And those weren't our guys, they were the "privatised military assets".
In the book "Guns, Germs and Steel" the point is made that the broadest pattern of human history is the extermination or displacement of indigenous populations by more populous, better armed, more developed, etc. peoples. It's always ugly. At some point we need to stop doing this.
Posted 08 February 2003 - 08:46 AM
Posted 08 February 2003 - 09:32 AM
Now we must get the "economic and media elites" to do the same. Also to fess up about Vietnam, Nicaragua, Colombia etc. etc. But that might make the public start questioning the wisdom of our foreign policy.
You see why a lot of documents are still classified "top secret" to protect us from uncomfortable truths. Also the news media don't have a high level of interest in these issues. I think Michael Jackson is a higher priority.
However the word gets around on the Web which is a good thing.
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