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What if the US became like Nazi Germany?


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#61 coyote

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 05:47 PM

Does anyone know what the native north American population was prior to Columbus?
I vaguely have approximately 3 million in mind, but I can't remember where it came from.
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#62 coyote

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 07:43 PM

You may be right about all of them.
I am remembering an elderly man from Turkey who I worked with about 30 years ago said, you need to hang all of your politicians and just start over.
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#63 juanpacheco

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 07:57 PM

Dear Tokyoman,

I am surprise on the position you take to defend the US nation. Like if you had suddenly forgotten how they launched an unecessary attack o Hisoshima and Nagasaki over fifty years ago.

But did they stop at all?

Here is a nuber of unnecessary attacks that these fellows have done:

Vietnam, Korea, Chile (removing Allende), Nicaragua, Guatemala, Grenada, Cuba. GUantanamo, etc. NOw som docukments have established that the US planted wrong evidence to entice the Jap[anese to attack Peral harbor, sacrficig their ow people to have a pretext to eter the War. This seems to have become a pattern, there are rumors that they also fabricated the septeber 11, as they did with the Oklahoma bombing. Just excuses to attack what they beoe interested in. No one in the world kgores that any ore nations have chemoical weapons, bun Iraq is thje one with a lage oil reserve oil, so I guess the US fabricates evidece on Iraq (as they did may tijes in Latin America to ijpolant governments) to attack the and put governments that favor aerican and british companies.
Unless you are playing the devils advocate, I do not trust your position.

REgards,
Juan Pacheco
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#64 coyote

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 10:42 PM

juan,

The battles you deemed unnecessary were because communist expansion was there.
Who would have wanted communist expansion to win anything?
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#65 platykitten

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Posted 08 February 2003 - 11:18 PM

It seems to me, that like a midriff bra, communist expansion covers a multitude of sins!!

If I hear one more apologist for US foreign policy use that excuse......
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#66 coyote

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 12:02 AM

I am not apologizing.
What do you call Russian backed Communist Cuban army in Granada?

I think to live under the communist domination would have been worse than muslim oppression.
What do you think?
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#67 juanpacheco

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 04:10 AM

Tokyoman
We probably have a different concept of communism, capitalism, and socialism too. Argentina was at one time an ultraright government, and just see it now. Sweaden is socialist, and look at their high living standard. You could hardly see young kids killing classmates in the communist countries, nor prostitution or drug trafficking.
So to talk about the communist threat, is the same as talking about witches in the Inquisition era, and the argument was used bu the USA in Latin America as effectively as the inquisitors back then.
At the end, who has the right remove or to implant any government in a sovereign nation? I suggest you read some articles in the following site:

www.nsa.org

This is written, by the way, by SU people mostly.
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#68 fabius

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 04:45 AM

RE: number of Native Americans, I think Fidel is high in his estimate, Europe hardly had 70 million at the time of discovery with much higher density. Aztec and Inca empires were very populous but the rest were spread thin. The majority of initial casualties were from disease spread by the Europeans, an early instance of a WMD.

Another point to make is that the sins of Americans of the 19th and 20th century are not unusual by the standards of other nations and empires of the time: British, Russian, French, German Spanish, Belgian etc. all responsible for some serious atrocities. Ever read "Heart of Darkness"?

And let us hope for some contender to take on GWB in 2004, although the present crop of Democrats are all "eunuchs" according to an interview with Hunter S. Thompson just tonight.

Anyway, Citizens of other nations, pray don't get too sanctimonious without examining your own history. Most of them aren't pretty.
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#69 fabius

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 05:09 AM

Some of you are discussing the communist expansion issue, and the deterrence of such expansion by the US.

An interesting link related to this: www.zmag.org/chomsky/dd

It is thought-provoking whether you agree or disagree. Also, most of it written in 1988-90, and look how nicely you can predict the current situation from the principles outlined.
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#70 Texas Al

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 05:55 AM

I've spent a few days on this forum and have gone from interest, to dismay, to anger. Shame on you Americans who are on here trashing your President (although I will defend your right to do so). Most of you are just bitter because your guy didn't win (even with the recounts Bush won by a larger margin). Thats all beside the point.

As for MOST of the rest of you non-American cry babies, you really lack credibility in your criticizm of the American Constitution, and American foreign policy. Guess what. America has the largest and most robust economy and the richest, top to bottom people in the history of civilization. We have proven that ours is the best system, the results prove it. In America, you get out of the economy what you put into it. Hard work is richly rewarded. We give aid to most of the countries of the world, many of whom turn right around and stab us in the back. And then we give them some more.

The fact that the Rupublicans now hold all three important power positions will have some effect on both domestic and foreign policy, in that more conservative positions will be taken. However you must realize that the difference between the most liberal politician and the most conservative in America, either of whom can be elected in America is VERY slim when compared to the rest of the world. I didn't like Bill Clinton, didn't vote for him. Didn't like Al Gore, didn't vote for him either. However both of them are Ronald Reagan himself compared to Europeans and Asians, most of who have socialist governments in varying degrees. Ours is far from socialist, although conservatives such as myself fear some tendencies that tend to head in that direction. Because of the checks and balances in our system, a Nazi system could never happen.

I wouldn't worry too much about George Bush, who is a kind and deeply religious man. He will make decisions based upon what is good for America, and that will include looking at history and trying not to repeat it. Had Clinton or Gore been confronted with similar problems to the ones Bush has so far had to face, I have no doubt the course would have been similar. America has done nothing militarily historically other than defend itself and its allies.

Memories of the bombs in Hiroshimi and Nagasaki haunt many in America. The morality of the decision to unleash such a weapon remains a question to many. Most of us feel that it was necessary to end the war, and saved many American AND Japanese lives in the longrun. However the horribleness of using such a weapon must never be repeated. The US and the USSR were able to avoid such an exchange over years due to the fact that both countries and much of the world would have been destroyed. This served as a deterrent.

However Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, and other terrorists are not deterred by the threat of nuclear retaliation. They don't value human life, not even those of their own kind. This lack of deterrence makes them VERY dangerous. We can ignore this fact, or we can try to deal with it.

I worry not about American policies, but those of Iraq and North Korea. I do not wish to tangle with either one militarily. I pray to God that China and Russia can help reel in this Kim lunatic before he does something that is irreversable.

This war that many of you are complaining about has not started, and it very well may never happen. As sensitive as America is, especially after 9/11, seemingly immiment action in Iraq remains delayed, in deference to the wishes of the rest of the world. If there is a way to remove the threat of Saddam Hussein without war, then it will happen. The more pressure Bush puts on Iraq and the world community to condemn him, the closer we get to a resolution without war. All the talk right now, and the buildup is all designed to bring about disarmament, in the best interest of the world. Had Saddam not started the war 12 years ago by invading a defenseless neighbor, had he not been defeated and allowed to remain in power with the promise of disarmament, then this wouldn't be going on right now.

So, I'm no longer angry. I have learned from this forum, just how pathetic many of you are out there, who don't enjoy living in the good old United States of America, so I'm willing to cut you a little slack while you stab us in the back.
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#71 Tokyoman

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 08:26 AM

The news is not good.

FAA Expands Restricted Airspace Over D.C. - Associated Press (Feb 8, 2003)
- State Department Exercises Caution - CBS News (Feb 8, 2003)
- 2 panels to monitor eavesdropping - Boston Globe (Feb 8, 2003)
- New Anti-Terror Bill: Critics Cry Foul - CBS News (Feb 8, 2003)
- Fresh move to delay Moussaoui trial - BBC (Feb 8, 2003)
- U.S. Lawyers Group Tackle Terrorism Issues - Reuters (Feb 8, 2003)
- Security Stepped Up Nationwide - CBS News (Feb 8, 2003)
- Canadian border crossings delayed by 'code orange' - CBC (Feb 8, 2003)
- Bush Orders Increased Alert for Terrorist Attacks in U.S. - NY Times (registration req'd) (Feb 8, 2003)
- Justice Department Will Appeal Ruling in Trial Linked to 9/11 - NY Times (registration req'd) (Feb 8, 2003)
- Nation Put on Higher Threat Alert - Washington Post (Feb 8, 2003)
- Watchful Waiting As Alert Is Raised - Washington Post (Feb 8, 2003)
- Terror Threat Level Is Raised to 'High Risk' - LA Times (registration req'd) (Feb 8, 2003)
- Group: Expanded Anti-Terror Legislation in the Works - Newsday (Feb 8, 2003)
- Justice Dept. Draft on Wider Powers Draws Quick Criticism - NY Times (registration req'd) (Feb 8, 2003)
- Ridge Puts Terror Threat at 8 on 10-Point Scale - Reuters (Feb 8, 2003)
- U.S. Considers New Anti-Terrorism Legislation - Reuters (Feb 7, 2003)
- High Security Goes Up Another Notch - Associated Press (Feb 7, 2003)

Eavesdropping, terror, war, high security, alert, legislation, WTF?

The US sounds crazy.

The draft proposal of the changes to the PATRIOT Act are even more worrying and the high threat of terrorism provides ideal conditions for trampling over dissent.
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#72 Houlin

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 02:27 PM

Texas Al

You are really a dope. You said that George Bush learns the lessons of history. The lesson here has to do with Empire Building and the ins and outs of Roman society and I doubt that you or Bush have a clue about Rome or about the Roman empire. First, the people themselves, like you, thought the government owed you for your service to the state. You are like the American Veteran who demands recognition and can be found demanding respect from all the kiddies. You guys are the ones who perpetuate mass murder through your disguise as a war veteran. On top of that, you want everyone in America to bow down to you because you happened to have served in some stupid war of americas.
Secondly, Rome turned into a cesspool of socialism not based on work or family but pleasure and convenience to the masses at the expense of large numbers of slaves. Those so called slaves in modern times are hidden from us but check out the INS.

In recent history, war was to be avoided at all costs. It was expenssive and destructive to large masses of people. The Greeks who started the Peleponesian wars found no way out of war and begged God himself to stop something they started. So, when you say, "Bush is looking at history and trying not to repeat it." I suspect you don't know what you are talking about.
Finally, this arguement is not about whether or not america is the greatest country in the world or whether or not you are a war veteran and expect everyone to sing your praises. Simply put, it is about behavior. American behavior and the crimes that republicans and democrats have commit against others. Get it? You are a criminal and you support the criminal acts of George Bush and America. You have no right to criticize Sadaam or North Korea, or Iran, or Syrai or the moslem world. Your a terrorist with numerous felonies under your belt. stop with the patriotic pap already. Open your stupid eyes, dope.

Fabius, your fabius.
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#73 coyote

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 06:09 PM

Fabius,

When you read anything of Noam Chomsky, it needs to be with the understanding that his foundation belief is based on your freedom is bad, unless it is controlled by his kind.
He is a wannabe communist professor, professional spin artist who gets invited to give speeches to the extreme left. They in turn give him their worship and free pub. In effect he has celebrity status for speaking from his social fears and long held convictions that America is his only enemy in his make believe world.
Unless of course it could be controlled by his extreme left.
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#74 coyote

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Posted 09 February 2003 - 06:41 PM

Juan,
There is a clear distinction between a socialist government system as your referring to with Sweden. And the aggresive domination of the world by communism as attempted by the elite of the kremlin.
Communism is when people are often killed trying to escape to the freedom of their choice. If you envy socialism, you should attempt to immigrate to sweden, but they probably would not allow it.:(
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#75 juanpacheco

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Posted 10 February 2003 - 05:03 AM

Gee Biz, good posts! I have never stayed long in Cuba, but look at their performance in the Olypics, health is better than may other LatinAmerican nations. Of course they do not drink Coke or wear jeans, but that does not make them any less human.
It is my understanding that the US supported hijm to remove Batista, just the same as they supported Osama to fight the Russians and suppoprted Hussein to fight the Sha. The Germans and the French are close to becoming not friends to the USA. I wonder why this happens, don?t they read Machiavelli?
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#76 coyote

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Posted 10 February 2003 - 02:48 PM

biz,
Some morning you will wake up realizing you would be much happier living in Cuba. An added bonus is the cost of living will be less expensive than Berkely.
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#77 juanpacheco

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Posted 11 February 2003 - 01:49 AM

Coyote,
+
I just got an idea, though ignore if would really work in practice.

I wish any person in the world could move abroad countries at will, say travel to Cuba, Norway, Russia and get a good education and medical? services for free, then go to the USA or Brittain and try to do business and succeed.

Sounds crazy, i know, but we need to acknowledgethat every place hace ts nice features.
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#78 coyote

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Posted 11 February 2003 - 03:06 PM

Juan,
Unfortunately there are guys called bureaucrats and politico types, that have to always attempt to control others. Sometimes it is their jobs, but I think these types would work for free.
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#79 chisinau

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Posted 11 February 2003 - 04:15 PM

When referring to the "american" constitution you can always invoke the 5th and SHUT UP !
Constitution...:(
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#80 pilot

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Posted 11 February 2003 - 05:46 PM

juan

<<<Dear Tokyoman,

I am surprise on the position you take to defend the US nation. Like if you had suddenly forgotten how they launched an unecessary attack o Hisoshima and Nagasaki over fifty years ago.>>>

Tokyoman is NOT from Japan !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The attacks in Japan over 50 years ago were horrible, but many more Japaneese and American lives were SAVED in the process of ending the war.
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