Spit it out and pray for awsome KGB Tzar Vladimir, (who is probably munching quietly on the same staff, as the rest of Russia under current conditions.)
"WHY RUSSIAN DEMOCRACY FAILED IN 1917" - azov's thread
Started by
xagversum
, Jan 29 2003 04:26 PM
101 replies to this topic
#47
korz-coss53
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Posted 03 March 2003 - 04:49 AM
IT Would have Failed because ! The alias of WW1 supported the Czar AND democracy needed totalitarianism first to keep order or the Czarist powers would have distorted it . Russia would have gone into chaos with and or with out West misdealing s with out Communist dictatorship of the proletariat .
The mass of people were not educated , serfs living on the aristocratic lands or slaves to the city industrialists capitalists . Democracy did not fail in 1917 it was postponed until the people where ready. Communist promise democracy and they delivered. With out education of the people with out government structural in place in 1991 as the Soviet Union did a strategic political and cold war withdraw to avoid nuclear war with America.
All would have gone to the dogs if thing where not in place for rule with out central communist supervised government. The Communist set it up so the union can govern with out central totalitarian government. Or it would be dead now.
The mass of people were not educated , serfs living on the aristocratic lands or slaves to the city industrialists capitalists . Democracy did not fail in 1917 it was postponed until the people where ready. Communist promise democracy and they delivered. With out education of the people with out government structural in place in 1991 as the Soviet Union did a strategic political and cold war withdraw to avoid nuclear war with America.
All would have gone to the dogs if thing where not in place for rule with out central communist supervised government. The Communist set it up so the union can govern with out central totalitarian government. Or it would be dead now.
#51
korz-coss53
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Posted 03 March 2003 - 03:41 PM
:eek:Originally posted by azov
Don't tell me the Cossack warrior flees before my mighty mammaries?
I Just do not want to be distracted as we conduct a serous
conversation . You abuse me of being sexist all the time.When I ignore you so as to not be distracted as we converse , you say I am homosexual, do not respond to you you say . You girl can not have it both ways; get Cossack angry . Cossack not afraid of police .
Need to be modest and appropriate to the event . Or shut up.
#57
stakhanov's cat
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Posted 11 March 2003 - 11:02 PM
I thought they were being "punished" for their Chekist activities. I tried to convince Chorny that the early Cheka was exclusively Latvian, but he just wants to see Abramovichs everywhere!
Azov, I thought the Soviets were in Latvia in 39, before the Shoah. Who started the deportations anyway?
Azov, I thought the Soviets were in Latvia in 39, before the Shoah. Who started the deportations anyway?
#58
stranger
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Posted 13 March 2003 - 02:07 AM
Yes, that first invasion of 1939 was always particularly confusing for me because at school text-book it was identified as the "liberation of Latvia, Lithuania and Western Ukraine..."
I thought "how the heck and what were they "liberating," when the war didn't even start yet," untill I figured out that the authors meant by this "liberation" something else...
In my opinion, as much as Russian presence was beneficial in Caucasus and Central Asia, as much devastating it was in Baltic States.
When I travelled over there, Latvia, of course, was hit the most out of all three states, in term of loss of ethnic population, replacement it with Russians and the Russofication of the state.
Baltic cities didn't look anything like Russian ones, and the culture itself reminded of German rather then of Russian.
I am not sure about participation of Latvians in early Che-ka, but they were well-known "Latyshskie strelki"(Latvian regiment?) which Lenin himself, I guess, acknowledged personally, because of their role in revolution or civil war - whatever...
Solzenitzin mentions Latvians in his Archipelago too, because many of them ended up in camps - the irony of things, he says, for their devoted service to revolution.
A lot of Latvians, Lithuanians and Ukrainians ended up in Siberia, where they, I guess, have being "Russified." Same place, where all the troublemakers of Tzar's times were traditionally ending up, including rebelious Russian aristocracy.
BTW - when I've been to Siberia, I couldn't help but to notice, particularly in the area of Novossibirsk, that Russians ethnically looked somewhat different then in Central part. They were taller on average, they were less talkative and it could be that... (help me Lord to not to get STL on my trail... but that's probably where all his legendary Aryens are located...lol )
I thought "how the heck and what were they "liberating," when the war didn't even start yet," untill I figured out that the authors meant by this "liberation" something else...
In my opinion, as much as Russian presence was beneficial in Caucasus and Central Asia, as much devastating it was in Baltic States.
When I travelled over there, Latvia, of course, was hit the most out of all three states, in term of loss of ethnic population, replacement it with Russians and the Russofication of the state.
Baltic cities didn't look anything like Russian ones, and the culture itself reminded of German rather then of Russian.
I am not sure about participation of Latvians in early Che-ka, but they were well-known "Latyshskie strelki"(Latvian regiment?) which Lenin himself, I guess, acknowledged personally, because of their role in revolution or civil war - whatever...
Solzenitzin mentions Latvians in his Archipelago too, because many of them ended up in camps - the irony of things, he says, for their devoted service to revolution.
A lot of Latvians, Lithuanians and Ukrainians ended up in Siberia, where they, I guess, have being "Russified." Same place, where all the troublemakers of Tzar's times were traditionally ending up, including rebelious Russian aristocracy.
BTW - when I've been to Siberia, I couldn't help but to notice, particularly in the area of Novossibirsk, that Russians ethnically looked somewhat different then in Central part. They were taller on average, they were less talkative and it could be that... (help me Lord to not to get STL on my trail... but that's probably where all his legendary Aryens are located...lol
)
#59
stakhanov's cat
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Posted 13 March 2003 - 01:04 PM
I posted some of this to Chorny on another thread:
As early as the year 1919 the All-Russian Che-Ka had come to have 2000 persons on its personal staff, with three-fourths of them natives of Latvia. Indeed, Letts, from the beginning, obtained, and retained, a special position in this regard, and would be engaged by Che-Kas in batches of whole families, and render those Che-Kas faithful service. Thus our modern Letts might be likened to the ancient mercenaries. So much was this the case that the Muscovite Che-Ka came to be known as "the Lettish Colony." A propos of the attraction which the institutions of Moscow had for Latvia's population, the Bulletin of the Left Social Revolutionary Party remarked: "Letts flock to the Extraordinary Commission of Moscow as folk emigrate to America, and for the same reason - to make their fortunes." And the fact that very few Letts knew a single word of Russian was in no way held to disqualify those immigrants from being entrusted with inquisitions and domiciliary searches, or even with the filling in of returns. Whence arose amusing anecdotes not wholly amusing to the victims.
Sergey Petrovich Melgunov, The Red Terror in Russia, London, 1925, pp. 248-249
A special Latvian unit which had been guarding Lenin at the Smolny Institute arrived on the same train from Petrograd as the Government.... All responsible security positions at the Kremlin were entrusted to riflemen of the Latvian Ninth Regiment; the Latvian Parade Unit and the Second Riga Regiment guarded the staff of the Supreme Soviet for Military Affairs, various commissariats, and foreign embassies.
Nikolai Nefiodov, "The Revolt of July 1918," article in Novoye Russkoye Slovo, New York. September 30, 1973.
Indeed, the Latvian Red Riflemen were in fact the strongest pillar supporting the Bolsheviks. They were the Bolsheviks' Praetorian guard. As the Latvian historian Uldis Germanis, who lives in Stockholm, points out (in Oberst Vacietis und die Lettischen Schuetzen im Weltkrieg und in der Oktoberrevolution, Stockholm, Amqvist & Wiksell, 1974), Lenin could rely on neither the disorganized Russian troops in St. Petersburg, nor the famous sailors at Kronstadt with their growing anarchistic tendencies, nor the militarily weak Red Guard, composed of workers. The Bolshevik headquarters in St. Petersburg, the Smolny Institute building, which contained Lenin's office, were guarded by a special company of Latvian Riflemen (officially called Svodnoya rota Latyshskich Strelkov pri VCIK i Sovnarkome). When the Soviet government moved to Moscow in March of 1918, these faithful bodyguards of the Bolshevik leadership, now known as the United Latvian Riflemen's Battalion, were assigned to guard the Kremlin.
Frank Gordon, Latvians and Jews between Germany and Russia, 1980.
The Latvian Riflemen's regiments of the Red Army, later united as the "Latdivision," participated in all the crucial battles of the Russian civil war, especially in the Ukraine and in storming the fortified zone at Perekop, which blocked the way to the Crimea. The Red Army's victories are unthinkable without the Latvian Riflemen. As the Russian communist poet Demyan Bedny (Pridvorov) wrote at the time, "Any flank is secure if Latvians are there! (Ljubyje flangi obespetcheni, kogda na flangach latyshi.)" It is a proven fact that the Riflemen saved the Bolshevik regime in July 1918, when the Left SR revolt broke out and the lives of Lenin, Trotsky, and Dzerzhinsky were hanging by a thread. As mentioned in the introduction, the protection of important buildings and persons in Moscow, especially in the Kremlin, was entrusted to the Latvian Riflemen. The famous Latvian military leader Jukums Vacietis and his men restored order in Moscow. As J. Porietis records in his book Strelnieku legendaras gaitas (The Riflemen's legendary deeds, Lincoln, Nebraska, 1966), units of Latvians smashed anti-Bolshevik rebellions in other cities as well -- the Third Regiment in Kaluga, the Fifth Regiment in Bologoye, the Sixth Regiment in St. Petersburg (Petrograd), the Seventh Regiment in Staraya Russa and St. Petersburg, the Eighth Regiment in Vologda and Yaroslav, and so on. Furthermore, the father of Soviet military aviation was the Latvian Jekabs Alksnis.
Along with Jews and Poles such as Dzerzhinsky and Menzhinsky, Latvians played a role in forming that fearsome instrument of Red terror, the Cheka. George Leggett notes this in his book The Cheka, Lenin's Political Police 1917-1922 (Oxford 1981). He quotes Trotsky as saying at a Politburo meeting on April 18,1918, that Latvians and Jews comprised the largest percentages of the Cheek's employees at the front, in the rear, and in Soviet institutions in the center. Jekabs Peterss, who was a close associate of the founder of the Cheka, Dzerzhinsky, and Martins Lacis-Sudrabs, who was the theoretician of the Red terror, were the most monstrous of the Latvian Chekists. The British journalist Reginald 0. G. Urch, who was well-versed in Baltic and Soviet affairs, mentions Lacis-Sudrabs in his book The Rabbit King of Russia (London 1939). Urch cites an article by Lacis-Sudrabs in which he wrote: "The Central Executive Committee has abolished the Cheka, but it has created and placed on duty a new sentinel -- the GPU. The Cheka has done its work.... And you, the new sentinel, be alert"
In the twenties and thirties, Latvians continued to be active in the Soviet Union's political police and intelligence service. The creator of Soviet spy networks in the West was Berzins, who was also the supervisor and mentor of the famous spy Richard Sorge. Another Berzins supervised the slave labor camp system at Kolyma, the Dal'stroy, which was the Soviet predecessor to and equivalent of Auschwitz.
Solzhenitsyn remarks in The Gulag Archipelago: "The Estonians and Lithuanians are close to my own soul.... They never harmed anyone, lived quietly, in good conditions, morally more honestly than we. As it turned out, they were guilty of living next to us and cutting us off from the sea.... As for Latvians, my attitude is somewhat more complicated. There is an element of fate. It was they, after all, who started the whole thing."
Frank Gordon, Latvians and Jews between Germany and Russia, 1980.
As early as the year 1919 the All-Russian Che-Ka had come to have 2000 persons on its personal staff, with three-fourths of them natives of Latvia. Indeed, Letts, from the beginning, obtained, and retained, a special position in this regard, and would be engaged by Che-Kas in batches of whole families, and render those Che-Kas faithful service. Thus our modern Letts might be likened to the ancient mercenaries. So much was this the case that the Muscovite Che-Ka came to be known as "the Lettish Colony." A propos of the attraction which the institutions of Moscow had for Latvia's population, the Bulletin of the Left Social Revolutionary Party remarked: "Letts flock to the Extraordinary Commission of Moscow as folk emigrate to America, and for the same reason - to make their fortunes." And the fact that very few Letts knew a single word of Russian was in no way held to disqualify those immigrants from being entrusted with inquisitions and domiciliary searches, or even with the filling in of returns. Whence arose amusing anecdotes not wholly amusing to the victims.
Sergey Petrovich Melgunov, The Red Terror in Russia, London, 1925, pp. 248-249
A special Latvian unit which had been guarding Lenin at the Smolny Institute arrived on the same train from Petrograd as the Government.... All responsible security positions at the Kremlin were entrusted to riflemen of the Latvian Ninth Regiment; the Latvian Parade Unit and the Second Riga Regiment guarded the staff of the Supreme Soviet for Military Affairs, various commissariats, and foreign embassies.
Nikolai Nefiodov, "The Revolt of July 1918," article in Novoye Russkoye Slovo, New York. September 30, 1973.
Indeed, the Latvian Red Riflemen were in fact the strongest pillar supporting the Bolsheviks. They were the Bolsheviks' Praetorian guard. As the Latvian historian Uldis Germanis, who lives in Stockholm, points out (in Oberst Vacietis und die Lettischen Schuetzen im Weltkrieg und in der Oktoberrevolution, Stockholm, Amqvist & Wiksell, 1974), Lenin could rely on neither the disorganized Russian troops in St. Petersburg, nor the famous sailors at Kronstadt with their growing anarchistic tendencies, nor the militarily weak Red Guard, composed of workers. The Bolshevik headquarters in St. Petersburg, the Smolny Institute building, which contained Lenin's office, were guarded by a special company of Latvian Riflemen (officially called Svodnoya rota Latyshskich Strelkov pri VCIK i Sovnarkome). When the Soviet government moved to Moscow in March of 1918, these faithful bodyguards of the Bolshevik leadership, now known as the United Latvian Riflemen's Battalion, were assigned to guard the Kremlin.
Frank Gordon, Latvians and Jews between Germany and Russia, 1980.
The Latvian Riflemen's regiments of the Red Army, later united as the "Latdivision," participated in all the crucial battles of the Russian civil war, especially in the Ukraine and in storming the fortified zone at Perekop, which blocked the way to the Crimea. The Red Army's victories are unthinkable without the Latvian Riflemen. As the Russian communist poet Demyan Bedny (Pridvorov) wrote at the time, "Any flank is secure if Latvians are there! (Ljubyje flangi obespetcheni, kogda na flangach latyshi.)" It is a proven fact that the Riflemen saved the Bolshevik regime in July 1918, when the Left SR revolt broke out and the lives of Lenin, Trotsky, and Dzerzhinsky were hanging by a thread. As mentioned in the introduction, the protection of important buildings and persons in Moscow, especially in the Kremlin, was entrusted to the Latvian Riflemen. The famous Latvian military leader Jukums Vacietis and his men restored order in Moscow. As J. Porietis records in his book Strelnieku legendaras gaitas (The Riflemen's legendary deeds, Lincoln, Nebraska, 1966), units of Latvians smashed anti-Bolshevik rebellions in other cities as well -- the Third Regiment in Kaluga, the Fifth Regiment in Bologoye, the Sixth Regiment in St. Petersburg (Petrograd), the Seventh Regiment in Staraya Russa and St. Petersburg, the Eighth Regiment in Vologda and Yaroslav, and so on. Furthermore, the father of Soviet military aviation was the Latvian Jekabs Alksnis.
Along with Jews and Poles such as Dzerzhinsky and Menzhinsky, Latvians played a role in forming that fearsome instrument of Red terror, the Cheka. George Leggett notes this in his book The Cheka, Lenin's Political Police 1917-1922 (Oxford 1981). He quotes Trotsky as saying at a Politburo meeting on April 18,1918, that Latvians and Jews comprised the largest percentages of the Cheek's employees at the front, in the rear, and in Soviet institutions in the center. Jekabs Peterss, who was a close associate of the founder of the Cheka, Dzerzhinsky, and Martins Lacis-Sudrabs, who was the theoretician of the Red terror, were the most monstrous of the Latvian Chekists. The British journalist Reginald 0. G. Urch, who was well-versed in Baltic and Soviet affairs, mentions Lacis-Sudrabs in his book The Rabbit King of Russia (London 1939). Urch cites an article by Lacis-Sudrabs in which he wrote: "The Central Executive Committee has abolished the Cheka, but it has created and placed on duty a new sentinel -- the GPU. The Cheka has done its work.... And you, the new sentinel, be alert"
In the twenties and thirties, Latvians continued to be active in the Soviet Union's political police and intelligence service. The creator of Soviet spy networks in the West was Berzins, who was also the supervisor and mentor of the famous spy Richard Sorge. Another Berzins supervised the slave labor camp system at Kolyma, the Dal'stroy, which was the Soviet predecessor to and equivalent of Auschwitz.
Solzhenitsyn remarks in The Gulag Archipelago: "The Estonians and Lithuanians are close to my own soul.... They never harmed anyone, lived quietly, in good conditions, morally more honestly than we. As it turned out, they were guilty of living next to us and cutting us off from the sea.... As for Latvians, my attitude is somewhat more complicated. There is an element of fate. It was they, after all, who started the whole thing."
Frank Gordon, Latvians and Jews between Germany and Russia, 1980.
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