7545 replies to this topic

[donquijote]

All the ingredients of the jungle: lion, violent monkeys, chaos, indifferent little animals...

Where's the hope? I bet on the last one.

"The civilian populace - caught in the crossfire - often remains passive just to survive."

Classic guerrilla war forming in Iraq

Recent upsurge in attacks against authorities and US forces has parallels, and differences, with past insurgencies.

By Brad Knickerbocker | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

War is never by the books. Adversaries learn and adapt. The political climate shifts on both sides. Loyalties and alliances couple and decouple. The civilian populace - caught in the crossfire - often remains passive just to survive.
To many experts, the conflict in Iraq has entered a new phase that resembles a classic guerrilla war with US forces now involved in counterinsurgency. And despite the lack of ideological cohesion among insurgent groups, history suggests that it could take as long as a decade to defeat them.

"Guerrilla warfare is the most underrated and the most successful form of warfare in human history," says Ivan Eland, a specialist on national security at the Independent Institute in Oakland, Calif. "It is a defensive type of war against a foreign invader. If the guerrillas don't lose, they win. The objective is to wait out your opponent until he goes home."

From the Filipino insurrection during the Spanish-American War to Vietnam to El Salvador, American troops have had plenty of experience in fighting home-grown enemies that look nothing like a conventional army. As have France in Algeria, Britain in Malaysia and Northern Ireland, Israel in the occupied territories.

Though "counterinsurgency" calls up memories of Vietnam, there may be as many differences as similarities.

Different from Vietnam

Iraqi insurgents have no means of deploying battalion-size forces, as North Vietnam and the Viet Cong did with help from the former Soviet Union. Iraq won't become a proxy conflict between superpowers, as the Vietnam War was. There is a heavy criminal dimension to the violence in Iraq, just as there has been in Algeria, Colombia, and Chechnya. And there is unlikely to be a negotiated resolution as long as Iraq is seen as part of the broader war on terrorism.

Still, Iraqi insurgents have the advantage of terrain - not jungles but an urban setting. They appear to have at least the passive support of many Iraqis. It's often difficult to tell the fighters from innocent civilians. And they try to force American forces to overreact, causing civilian casualties and consequent outrage.

"No two insurgencies are alike," says retired Army Col. Dan Smith of the Friends Committee on National Legislation. "Except that they are violent affairs in which noncombatants tend to suffer most and national infrastructure tends to be destroyed."

Since early April, when the health ministry in Baghdad began keeping figures, some 3,200 civilians (not including Iraqi police or insurgents) have been killed - some in terrorist attacks, some by the US-led coalition. On average, insurgents now are attacking US forces 87 times a day. More than 100 foreigners have been kidnapped, and some 30 of those killed. Attacks on oil pipelines are occurring nearly every day now.

(snip)

How to win: the hard lessons

"Unconventional war" in fact has been studied, trained for, and practiced for more than 40 years. But fighting guerrillas doesn't necessarily allow for the best use of the largest, most technologically advanced armed force in human history. Nor does it always address the real basis for defeating an insurgency, which rests more on political, cultural, and economic factors. Other militarily dominant countries have learned this as well.

"In many aspects, the French counterinsurgency effort typified the frustrations faced by modern powers in a classic unconventional conflict," states a US Marine Corps training document. "Like the US in Vietnam, the French in Algeria were unable to transform military successes (of which there were many) into a political victory."

(snip)

Is it possible to prevail over the Iraqi insurgency?

First, says John Pike of the group GlobalSecurity.org, enemy combatants must be killed, captured, or demoralized faster than new ones can be recruited, and the majority of the population must come to see the insurgency as illegitimate and its defeat as inevitable.

It's a tough job, one that's likely to take years - as long as 10 years, says Dr. Metz at the Army War College. And the outcome is by no means assured.

"The government must appear to be legitimate, inevitable, and effective at providing security and services," says Mr. Pike. "As long as Iran does not stir the pot, these objectives could be approached by the end of this decade, with luck."

http://www.csmonitor...01s01-woiq.html

[Bader]

Yes, I know!

LIked that one a lot DonQ.

Your list of four points- thats it, but I would put the word 'feet'
in inverted commas as they also represent voting with money, mind, tonge etc. (competition )
Autocracy and monopoly reduce down options so people must
excercise options and keep them functioning.

An important matter emphasised in Social Credit is the relationship between people and organisation/the group which is ignored at the lttle animals peril, naturally to the benefit of the
top who gain from the industry of the majority. Along with that is the importance of being able to 'contract out'. This is the matter
of voting with the feet, which retains some form of sovereignty of the individual. Unfortunately debt is the main instrument that limits this.
It also points out the difference between an organisation and an organism. Socialism and corporatism are examples of faceless
autocratic organisation. A coop is an example of an organism,
which emphasises the living- people coming first and benefiting
from their own energy (that is social credit), and I think this is what you are emphasising when you use the word 'humanism'
but for many people they will associate this word with socialism
because it is associated with bulk humans where the individual
looses its individuality and the organism becomes an organisation.

Ten years of this war in Iraq will be playing both ends against the middle because by ten years the extent of cancer will have developed to the point that what the invaders havent killed will
be on deathrow anyway. Is this why they have used depleted uranium for over ten years there? To finally set a false precendent that claims the big powers can beat civilian armies
using guerrilla warfare.
I rather think that the bigger picture- the oil and gas of the greater region and the breakup of Russia is the determining factor
of what will happen. It may well end up with a chosen 'adversary'
like Arafat to sit on top of the Iraqis as it happens in Palestine.
In Palestine you have extremists sitting in power on both sides doing enough war against each other to keep the funds flowing in to maintain the status quo while the decent people on both sides dont get a look in.

[Bader]

War today is not military alone. That ended in 1945.
The US never intended to win (militarily) the Korean war, nor Viet Nam and clearly its the same in Iraq.
The NWO wont be achieved in Bonepart style, by invading country after country till you have the lot, apart from tha fact that they all failed to beat Russia and the British were the stumbling block time after time although inferior each time.
Woj will probably have another view.
Military action is only one tool and usually is the last resort.
The IMF etc are the front runners.
I would like to see the debt figures of Jugoslavia when it ended as one unit and compare it with the total of all the fragment
states today.

[donquijote]

<LIked that one a lot DonQ.>

Howdy Bader, all
I'm glad you liked it (though I published it before). Unless you keep the lion in check (no lion no problem) the revolutions are invariably betrayed by the Big Pigs that end up feeding the lions. That's why I distrust Chavez independently of all the connections ha has made with Cuba.

<Your list of four points- thats it, but I would put the word 'feet'
in inverted commas as they also represent voting with money, mind, tonge etc. (competition )
Autocracy and monopoly reduce down options so people must
excercise options and keep them functioning.>

Yeah I forgot one point, and I learned it the hard way.

I broke up with the lion in my life...my wife. Good woman, but all the traits of the lion: monopolistic, lacking in sense of humor, she even wanted my to put on the lion suit so she could play the victim. So what did I do? Make noise so to scare her and make her run away, and so it finally happened...

(By the way, the computer stayed behind so I'M GOING TO HAVE LESS TIME ON THE INTERNET)

So here is the final point: CRY LION! (The lion relies on camouflage, so your voice is needed by others)

<An important matter emphasised in Social Credit is the relationship between people and organisation/the group which is ignored at the lttle animals peril, naturally to the benefit of the
top who gain from the industry of the majority. Along with that is the importance of being able to 'contract out'. This is the matter
of voting with the feet, which retains some form of sovereignty of the individual. Unfortunately debt is the main instrument that limits this.
It also points out the difference between an organisation and an organism. Socialism and corporatism are examples of faceless
autocratic organisation. A coop is an example of an organism,
which emphasises the living- people coming first and benefiting
from their own energy (that is social credit), and I think this is what you are emphasising when you use the word 'humanism'
but for many people they will associate this word with socialism
because it is associated with bulk humans where the individual
looses its individuality and the organism becomes an organisation.>

I don't particularly like Humanism, except for its original meaning coming out of the Dark Ages. When you think about it, the same thing is happening today. And believe a coop, or any institution for the benefit of the human being is humanist. But I'm not betting too much on it. The words that stick with the proles are the names of their national dish, fruit, whatever. I'm just completing an strategic alliance with an Italian new friend, and the informal name we have agreed on is...Spaghetti Revolution. Anyway we can make these food names the catch for the people (that's what it is) and then down the line make them the unofficial names, vox populi, so to speak. So in other words, we can have a "Kiwi Revolution":D to have the people bite and read what we want, and then later give it an official name. But what is the name you suggest?

[donquijote]

The ABC of handling a lion...
-DO NOT FEED THE LION (you feed the lion, you feed the problem)
-VOTE WITH YOUR FEET (don't buy from predators, go for the cheaper option)
-NONVIOLENCE IS BETTER (the lion wants you to dress as a lion for him to play the victim)
-CRY LION! (The lion relies on camouflage, so your voice is needed by others)
-NO LION NO PROBLEM! (do not accept the beast in your life)

What do you think, guys?

[donquijote]

This is a powerful debate between one guy critisizing my story of the dinosaurs for its "pessimism" (or is it reality?) and another defending my point (the stupid dinosaurs got to change, right?). My answer at the end...

> > Religious eschatologists are optimists. Secular eschatologists of the
> >environmental style preach that the world is going to hell and will fail
> >with no hope. It is all faith in both cases, and the religious view of
> >bicycles as the vehicle of the future is just as reliable as predicting the
> >second coming.

> >
> We live in a world now were we are intentionally kept confused by media
> information overload. We as a people don't spend time researching or
> learning about topics ourselves, so we argue about whatever favorite
> position we want.
>
> We also trust that those ruling our lives have our best interests at
> heart and because of this we trust they won't lie to us. And so we
> believe as we must that the world and our place in it is glorious and
> the best it can possibly be.
>
> If we felt otherwise, we might be compelled to ask why our masters don't
> fix the problem.
>
> The bicycle might've helped at one time. But I think the evidence shows
> it's too late. I was once interested in promoting the bicycle as a way
> to extend our fossil fuel wealth so that a few more generations can
> enjoy it. After delving into that topic for a few years and learning all
> I could on it, I realize it's way too late. The last great field, Ghawar
> in Saudi Arabia, is showing it's age and will be in decline soon. Saudi
> Arabia has pulled all the stops in maximizing production from this
> field. When it begins it's decline, it will be accelerated for this
> reason. Only two major fields in the world haven't peaked and gone into
> decline. They are in Iraq and Saudi Arabia. But whereas Saudi Arabia was
> so huge it could overcome the peaking of every other major field in the
> world, Iraq won't be able to do so for Saudi Arabia.
>
> Once the decline begins and I think it will be in this decade, then it
> won't matter us whether a few individuals have picked a less consumptive
> lifestyle or not. It won't matter if people believe that events are
> happening for this reason or that reason. We'll be forced to adapt to a
> future without the wealth the 20th century enjoyed and there's nothing
> we can do about it. We wasted a chance and now a new era in history is
> coming.
>
> I find it odd that every generation accepts that previous generations
> were subject to historical trends and the vagaries of their environment
> events and times, but believe they are now immune. Just like now, folks
> honestly believe that through technology we've overcome the natural laws
> and boundaries that govern our lives. It's only through selective
> ignorance that we can believe this. And that selective ignorance IMO,
> has been promoted through our education system. Nobel Prize Winner,
> Frederick Soddy was the first to publish in print the fact that every
> aspect of our lives and economics was limited by the available energy we
> have to consume. Previously these limits were couched in other resources
> such as food, water, land, number of sheep etc... But those are all just
> means by which we control, capture and consume the energy that sustains
> us. Soddy was the first to recognize that energy represents all of our
> final limits. The reason he wasn't well accepted I think, is he realized
> that money is also bounded by energy, and by doing so, he took the magic
> and mystery of money out of the equation. When one realizes that all
> human industry is bound by available energy and that money can only
> trade this potential energy and it's products, then one realizes that
> the value of money is bounded by the available energy in the system.
>
> So if energy supplies diminish so does the value of money. If the
> quantity of money increases in relation to energy, then the value per
> unit of money must decrease. And that is happening now. The deficit is
> rising at new record levels, low interest rates are enabling banks to
> increase the quantity of money, and so the money supply is increasing
> faster than our ability to increase output. So we have job loss and
> inflation. And if this is true, the first place inflation will manifest
> is in energy prices.
>
> Imagine what things will look like when oil goes into decline? If things
> are just slowing now, imagine what our rulers will do when they see
> their fortunes decline? That will be exciting!
>
> And to compound this, much of the industrialized world is getting to the
> end of their natural gas supplies. North America, much of Europe and
> Australia will run out by the end of this decade. The manufacturing
> industry knows it, and has been moving jobs to Asia, where the natural
> gas is still plentiful. Soon, with little natural gas left and oil
> shortages becoming epidemic, Asia will become the world's industrial and
> economic powerhouse. The only value left in the depleted nations will be
> in their young people as troops to fight terrorism in the oil producing
> countries so that Asia doesn't see interruptions in supply.
>
> But heck, what do I know? This can't happen. We're too smart to let it
> happen. We can use our minds to overcome energy and matter.
>
> Enjoy. We live in a very interesting period of human history. Learn more
> about what's going on out there and appreciate your place in the scheme
> of things.
>
> Or ignore it. No matter to me.
>
> Jack Dingler


Good article, it says it all.

The sheep expect the shepherd to take them to a safe place in good faith. They don't know though he's paid by the wolves...

[donquijote]

Today security chased me out of the *entrance* (not the theater itself) where the Holy Dalai Lama was giving his message of "Peace." The reason? I was passing out my flyers in a friendly, fun way to the people coming out. "Revolution for Russia," I was saying (like not only freedom for Tibet, but for the whole f*** world). By the way, big bucks to see him, and a bunch of lions there.

I wrote about him a while back. He endorsed the war in Iraq, I think it was. The same, same thing happened to me at an Amnesty International activity where the "poor" Tibetan nuns spoke of the horrors of being raped. They never talk about rape right here in the American jungle though. They even called the dogs on me. Lucky me, the "dog" turned out to be a civilized policeman.

It's like Orwell said: "All saints are guilty until proven innocent"...

[Bader]

What do we think?

I think you have over personalised it, sorry to hear the domestic
adversities, and cheaper options are not really part of the issue,
'alternative' options are. It suggests that Lion franchised produce is the only quality produce.

Jack Dingler is a dangerous man because he thinks for himself
which threatens the orthodox society and thus he is a terrorist
opposed to the freedom and democracy of the Lionsville, therefore he hates freedom and democracy. Somebody get a GPS reference on his dwelling so we can dispatch a black helicopter to re-align his molicules.
Just think of the water being wasted by Jack, every day he remains alive destablising society.

Soddy was a dangerous man as well because he question the finance system.
There are very interesting perspectives on money which makes it a very interesting and ellusive subject, partly why people never stop to question it, taking it for granted like mothers and daylight.
Some have argued for time to be the basis of money.
The sun is probably the greatest sourse of energy to life, the emphases on oil is probabaly more of concern to corporate
monopolies because of the huge variety of products that can be mass produced from petrolium, apart from burning oil/petrol for energy. IF we run into the state of rationing based on priority of use, the alternatives to replace things like plastics may make a lot of room for smaller and more numerous manufacturers using more traditional materials which require less energy.
Over production for debt sake is the main driving force. The game of attracting 'foreign investment'= corporate plunder, the rape of resources and energy, is to play catch-up with debt, to play catch-up with deficits, to try and retain the same standard of living to stay in govt because larger and larger portions of the
public sectors respective 'vote' (funding) is paying off debt not supplying services, eg in health and education. And every country boosting industry needs to sell more than it imports- a global market of more sellers than buyers, very interesting and impossible. We are like flies bouncing and bouncing against glass and never realising that nothing is going to change even though they cant see the glass to understand how rediculous and impossible the predicament.
Even when people like Soddy and Douglas come along and debunk the orthodoxy cult people take no notice because:
1, the media havent made news about it,
2, the politicians are ignoring it,
3, the academics are not interested,
4, it requires mental work to break through the witchcraft/black magic of the orthodox system of information/education which
involves all the first three.
5, the time frame of the fallout from the dysfunct is too long for
most people to see it and in that time things easy to see have changed, so they are too mesmerised to fathom anything.
6, various forms of credit, methods of purchasing before paying etc makes it possible for people to attain things, some of which if they couldnt would create a crisis which would then draw attention to the dysfunctional way things are run.

If you got your head around this money game DonQ I am sure you could writie some ( a lot more) very entertaining and educating pamphletes.

I trust you had the presence of mind to give the 'dog' a pamphete!

[donquijote]

<I think you have over personalised it, sorry to hear the domestic
adversities,>

Howdy Bader
That's something to celebrate. She is not aboard the revolution so she goes overboard. A terrible drain there. She'll happier with Sancho, I'm sure...

< and cheaper options are not really part of the issue,
'alternative' options are.>

Cheaper option is better so long as we have a lion. I'll give you an example. We are fighting for OPTIONS, true, say between driving or riding a bicycle, but what is actually better? Think about it. When you buy a Hummer at $55K you are taxed 7% of that in Florida, who are you feeding? And then insurance and gas... If you ride a bicycle though nobody is feeding off you. You get it?

I'll explain it some other way:

CONSUMERISM=LION
SIMPLE LIFE=FREEDOM

This is not surprising at all, and even Gandhi preached austerity. Which I do NOT fully endorse. People want to have things, but not the wrong things (say polluting things), or the things that most feed the lion.

< It suggests that Lion franchised produce is the only quality produce.>

No, sometimes I do expend more for a quality product that goes to feed, say, organic agriculture, but that's not the lion. So "do not feed the lion" takes priority over "buy cheaper." So far so good?

Or do we need to re-word it?:confused:

<Jack Dingler is a dangerous man because he thinks for himself
which threatens the orthodox society and thus he is a terrorist
opposed to the freedom and democracy of the Lionsville, therefore he hates freedom and democracy. Somebody get a GPS reference on his dwelling so we can dispatch a black helicopter to re-align his molicules.
Just think of the water being wasted by Jack, every day he remains alive destablising society.>

You are speaking ironically, right?

<Over production for debt sake is the main driving force.>

OK, then you DO agree with me... Consumerism feeds the lion.

< The game of attracting 'foreign investment'= corporate plunder, the rape of resources and energy, is to play catch-up with debt, to play catch-up with deficits, to try and retain the same standard of living to stay in govt because larger and larger portions of the
public sectors respective 'vote' (funding) is paying off debt not supplying services, eg in health and education. And every country boosting industry needs to sell more than it imports- a global market of more sellers than buyers, very interesting and impossible. We are like flies bouncing and bouncing against glass and never realising that nothing is going to change even though they cant see the glass to understand how rediculous and impossible the predicament.>

Good metaphor.

<Even when people like Soddy and Douglas come along and debunk the orthodoxy cult people take no notice because:
1, the media havent made news about it,
2, the politicians are ignoring it,
3, the academics are not interested,
4, it requires mental work to break through the witchcraft/black magic of the orthodox system of information/education which
involves all the first three.
5, the time frame of the fallout from the dysfunct is too long for
most people to see it and in that time things easy to see have changed, so they are too mesmerised to fathom anything.
6, various forms of credit, methods of purchasing before paying etc makes it possible for people to attain things, some of which if they couldnt would create a crisis which would then draw attention to the dysfunctional way things are run.>

In other words, he's ignored because people is drooling over getting their hands on an SUV, which never sees any dirt. It's the adventure machine of the couch potatoes. Consumerism at its worst. And then work 60 hours a week to pay it, no time for leasure, family, democracy...:confused:

<If you got your head around this money game DonQ I am sure you could writie some ( a lot more) very entertaining and educating pamphletes.>

How about this: Planet Earth turns around an Axis of Evil, which is based on the Power of Gold over all other concerns, including human life.

<I trust you had the presence of mind to give the 'dog' a pamphete! >

The dogs can be retrained; we can even provide them better food. But lion in sheep's clothing is very dangerous...

[donquijote]

> > > We also trust that those ruling our lives have our best interests at
> > > heart and because of this we trust they won't lie to us. And so we
> > > believe as we must that the world and our place in it is glorious and
> > > the best it can possibly be.
> > >
> > > If we felt otherwise, we might be compelled to ask why our masters don't
> > > fix the problem.
> >
> > Good article, it says it all.
> >
> > The sheep expect the shepherd to take them to a safe place in good
> > faith. They don't know though he's paid by the wolves...
>
> Now are you against wolves too? Or are you pro-sheep? What about
> pro-dog? Cat?

I think all little animals were created to roam free. Sheep must have been conditioned by the media. Dogs though are beyond hope; they need the master. And cats, cats are already free.

We should consider launching Animal Farm all over again, but without the pigs...

[donquijote]

Yep, we are getting old, Bader. But we are getting wiser, right? Now we know everything to be known about big game and camouflage, and everything going on in the jungle. Are we close to the 'grand finale'? Are we alone by now? What became of Woj, Pliny?

New friends though, like Albert from Italy. Here's a sample of our last correspondence. Believe me, in a few days he's already in the trail of the lion. But we also mix a bit of spicy humor--which I think makes things more bearable. He's a multitalented artist, and he's even talking of mounting an opera with "no lion no problem." I hope he's serious...

He may visit soon.

(Bader, would you agree with my answer to #4? I seriously think, that humor, having fun, may be the best insurance against the lion growing out of a r-evolution. Could HUMOR be our secret weapon, both pre and post revolution? Take for example the post about Animal Farm above. What do you think?)

<4) I "filled" your quoting Emma (Goldman) I liked very much, with some other activities ;o)...>

Good, the r-evolution must be fun so it won't become a lion... Is that the best insurance against the beast?

<5) My primary aim at present, as for what implies writing and our relationship is to have a complete framework of the little big 'NO JUNGLE, NO PROBLEM' satiric fables that you've written and are writing, to study, translate, publish and market/spread them out in Italian (and possibly along with their English and Spanish trasnlations).
I/we've to stick to this otherwise we'll do too little or nothing real, concrete, together.>

Sure, first things first...

[donquijote]

Bader, and we thought we knew EVERYTHING about the jungle. We couldn't have thought though of this manipulative shepherd and his tricks. Luckily we know the "good shepherd" is not needed...

(Brought to you from the same debate above. The subject is "bicycles," but as I said, everything is related.)

THE GOOD SHEPHERD
Once upon a time a good shepherd named Sam lived in a lush green valley. He tended a small flock of sheep and protected them and cared for them and took their wool for himself. And his herd would grow, for all the sheep nearby heard that his charges need not fear the butcher...as I was saying, Sam was a kindly shepherd.

And so Sam would take in sheep that ran away from other farms, where butcher's knife awaited them. Naturally, he would return the kind he didn't like...sheep with fleece that resembled dreadlocks or funny looking eyes or other undesirable traits. Still, all the animals around knew his place to be best.

The safety of the sheep and Sam's prosperity were further enhanced by Sam's long shotgun. The jackals soon learned to pick other prey and the sheep were content, though often cold for lack of fleece.

Over time, however, the happy sheep began to notice that something was amiss. For instance, when the jackals slinked by, Sam would no longer chase them. He would simply blast them from the porch of his spare but neat white house. The problem with that was simple: most of the pellets ended up in the sheep, with a distinct minority inconveniencing the jackals.

Moreover, whether because of myopia or a drinking problem, Sam would often fire upon black sheep of the herd, as if confusing them with the jackals. When the sheep complained, the herder would look puzzled and go home to enjoy fine mutton.

The situation grew intolerable, yet everyone knew that other ranches had the same problems, and worse. The most active of the herd had finally come up with a good idea. Next time the jackals came in to try their luck they were able to get right next to the sheep -- and then the rams and the ewes charged, giving hell with horn and hoof.

No sooner that the predators retreated, leaving mangled comrades in their wake, than did rancher Sam come out, shotgun at the ready. He surveyed the battleground and addressed the sheep. --"Sheep," he said "I am impressed! Who did this fine work?" Several planners of the ambush came forward, baaaing proudly.

Sam raised his shotgun and blasted the animal closest to him. The rest stood dumbfounded, not sure what to do. The shepherd quickly shot the others who came forward.

--"That" he declared "is the end to which all who employ violence against fellow animal will come." One ewe began to say that jackals were not exactly fellow animals, but the gaping muzzle of Sam's shotgun restored quiet.

Sam knew he was right, for if the dumb beasts learned to fend for themselves, he and his shotgun would be unemployed. Worse yet, fleecing would become outright perilous.

And so life goes on as before. Jackals eat better, and so does Sam. Stray pellets have a commendable ability to find sheep while seeking jackals. And the herd is content, for they know that the other sheep have it even worse.

http://www.a-human-r...KBA/fable.shtml

[donquijote]

Another good article by Dingler. Notice the link to Easter Island, which we discussed before. Maybe I should invite him over..

> Actually they were very hard on the land. Slash and burn agriculture is
>not sustainable.
>
>
>

Depends on which indian tribes we are discussing. You are both right
depending on whom you pick. The natives of New Guinea were probably the
closest to having a sustaining society, of any group of people in the world.

The saddest thing about our society I think, is that we have created
people with a very solid understanding of how the world and universe
works, and our place in it. But because this knowledge leads to long
term views that are at odds with short term gain, we ridicule their
opinions and suggestions, and refuse to learn more about the world
ourselves.

When I went to school back in the dark ages, we had a class called
physical sciences. In that class I learned about the Laws of
Thermodynamics. Amazingly, that little nugget turned out to be one the
most important things to know, when it comes to making sense of
everything else in the world. After all, the relationship between energy
and matter and the basic rules about what you can do with the two,
defines our entire earthly existence. Nothing we can do, can go beyond
these limits. Sadly, this bit of knowledge's significance wasn't
understood by my teachers or even myself at the time. And even now most
folks my age couldn't really tell you what it means in day to day life.
It's a common belief that much of what we do today, cheats these rules.
But that notion is nothing short of magical, and it's false. We do
everything we do today, because we very cleverly work with the rules. We
have to, any effort that attempts to violate them fails.

Economics violates real world physical rules all the time. That's why
theories have to be piled on top of theories to account for theories
that only work sometimes. It's akin to piling fables up to build a
religion. The folks that learn the most one off theories then becomes an
economic voodoo priest. This differs dramatically from the hard sciences
where a theory must have precise definitions of how it operates and
under what conditions. And it must be repeatable. Economics is more
about BS and gut instinct.

I don't know if they teach the Laws of Thermodynamics anymore in school.
from what I've heard of our current education system, that may be
college level work now.

This article may describe the model that best fits us.
http://dieoff.com/page145.htm

Jack Dingler

[donquijote]

Here are a couple of cases where I volunteer to give Jack a hand...

> You're welcome to ignore anything you like.
>
> Jack Dingler

Isn't that what the ostrich does?

I wonder if he's well equipped for evolution, though. I mean, he may
be OK in Australia but not in Africa with the lions...

***

(here the guy attacks Jack)

> Jack, who was the economist who said that if things can't go on forever,
> they won't? We already know how to build relatively cheap houses which
> consume virtually no energy. (Earth sheltered being only one way). We
> waste 90-95% of our grain feeding it to animals. Just a small change in
> diet would solve the energy issues relating to agriculture and feed the
> world too. But what is your point? If you want to join the doom and gloom
> crowd, be my guest. But remember Paul Ehrlich who wrote the Population
> Bomb? It never happened. He personally lost his bets on commodies and
> food. They were like what you post.

Even if was not totally true, it's scary enough. And I'm not talking
50 years down the road, I'm talking about HERE AND NOW: our ponds,
rivers, lakes, and beaches being unfit for swimming or having to use a
pound of chemicals on your sking to avoid being fried by the sun rays
going through the man-made hole in the ozone layer.

"Living like rats is not my idea of life" -Jacques Cousteau

[donquijote]

THE OVERTHROW OF THE AMERICAN REPUBLIC

http://www.skolnicks...com/ootar2.html

interesting, no?

[Bader]

Howdy DonQ:

Regarding the ABC of dont feed the Lion-
points you made are taken but there are various perspectives
that are ok and not ok, so I suggest just drop the " so go for cheaper...". The first part says it all.

Another way to express my response to Dingler's Powerful Debate, is to realise how long/ the distance it takes to turn a big ship around. THats on the basis one has control.
Until you take over the controls of money power the ship stays on course for the iceberg, which brings us to that excellent one-liner you spun- "Planet earth turns around the Axis of Evil, which is based on the Power of Gold, over all other concerns, including human life."
Also previously summarised as: the love of money is the roote of all evil.
Money is axis, love of money is the energy (roote) that turns it
and the output is criminal. A crime is dealing with someone elses propery in such a way as to benefit at their expense.

Yes I was being ironic, which is using humour to make or reinforce a point/message. And so I agree humour is important, just as drama or play-acting your Italian friend aspires to do.

Have we reached the grand final? I thought we had many months ago but me and Woj had a good chat on our own and it got going again when you rejoined.
Perhaps Woj has taken trip to Britain. He might be in the British Museum right now doing research as marx did to try an woo the world. Im not sure as to whether Lenin did his apprenticeship there as well. Without British guidance ( and Wall ST finance) he will not unit the Slavs.
Right? Wink.

Would I agree with your answer to #4?
I dont follow, what was the #4? There was a point four following in the second quote from Dingler but how could the question come before you have a chance to comment?
It may relate to the use of humour, in which case it is already answered. Animal Farm is basically humour isnt it? I mean a major aspect is to see the funny side irrispective of the seriousness of the situation.

What do I think of 'post above' which was "Animal Farm all over again"?
Its about the bribes sheperds, paid by the wolves. Thats a major
problem. The taxpayer pays the salaries of the MPs but some
other interest gets their service.
THey are described in the New Testament as Hirelings who should get between the sheep and the threat to protect them.
But being mere hirelings they protect themselves first by leaving the sheep for safety they in effect put the sheep between them and the wolf - the good sheperd gives his life for the sheep.
The Axis of Evil will take them all- sheep, sheperd and wolf as fits.

Re Easter Is:
"The sadest thing about our society I think, is that we have created people with a very solid understanding of how the world and universe works, and our place in it. But because this knowledge leads to long term views that are at odds with short term gain, we ridicule their opinions and suggestions, and refuse to learn more about the world ourselves."

I have to disagree entirely. It's not that simple. The scientific laws as economic laws are chosen and the academics go along with the money and the promotion same as the politicians.
The outcome is planned and those working for the short term gains are actually working also for the long term goal as planned
unwittingly. The dynasmics of the laws of money/so called science and learning are producing a specific outcome, because it is an Axis of Evil its criminal dysfunction is starting to show up in
many areas of life on planet Earth. When the ship finally hits the 'fan' (the iceberg) the result will be one world govt, population reduced by billions and industrilisation wound back likewise etc. This is what the world summit meetings are all about and Dingler had better be prepared to accept that there is no shortage of scientics (hirelings) who have a set response to the 'wolf' that threatens the sheep (planet and life) that have a major input into these meetings. Its the power (love) of money, not the love of truth.
Dingler is one of the victims of the education system which trains people to be naive, thinking higher education is about getting closer to the truth, that all scientists agree and believe the same,
which is only true.
Meanwhile the politicians work hard to deceive everyone that they arent on the same ship.

[donquijote]

<Regarding the ABC of dont feed the Lion-
points you made are taken but there are various perspectives
that are ok and not ok, so I suggest just drop the " so go for cheaper...". The first part says it all.>

Howdy Bader
OK, let's see...

The ABC of handling a lion...
-DO NOT FEED THE LION (you feed the lion, you feed the problem)
-VOTE WITH YOUR FEET (don't buy from predators, move elsewhere)
-NONVIOLENCE IS BETTER (the lion wants you to dress as a lion for him to play the victim)
-CRY LION! (The lion relies on camouflage, so your voice is needed by others)
-NO LION NO PROBLEM! (do not accept the beast in your life)

how about it now?

<Another way to express my response to Dingler's Powerful Debate, is to realise how long/ the distance it takes to turn a big ship around. THats on the basis one has control.
Until you take over the controls of money power the ship stays on course for the iceberg, which brings us to that excellent one-liner you spun- "Planet earth turns around the Axis of Evil, which is based on the Power of Gold, over all other concerns, including human life."
Also previously summarised as: the love of money is the roote of all evil.
Money is axis, love of money is the energy (roote) that turns it
and the output is criminal. A crime is dealing with someone elses propery in such a way as to benefit at their expense.>

I know. They blame it on "human nature," but we smell a puppeteer behind it, don't we?

<Yes I was being ironic, which is using humour to make or reinforce a point/message. And so I agree humour is important, just as drama or play-acting your Italian friend aspires to do.>

Saying something powerful somewhat jokingly. You soften the impact. Perhaps make it more enticing...

<Have we reached the grand final? I thought we had many months ago but me and Woj had a good chat on our own and it got going again when you rejoined.>

I know, and we always find interesting stuff. You are going to like the link above. It talks about your favorite president, Kennedy...

<Perhaps Woj has taken trip to Britain. He might be in the British Museum right now doing research as marx did to try an woo the world. Im not sure as to whether Lenin did his apprenticeship there as well. Without British guidance ( and Wall ST finance) he will not unit the Slavs.
Right? Wink.>

He's not looking for the guy behind the curtains, the master of ceremonies, the grand puppeteer so to speak.

<Would I agree with your answer to #4?
I dont follow, what was the #4? There was a point four following in the second quote from Dingler but how could the question come before you have a chance to comment?>

I mean this...

"Good, the r-evolution must be fun so it won't become a lion... Is that the best insurance against the beast?"

Think about it: Instead of sitting there--serious like President Chavez--leading the sheep, I'd sit there before all the people expecting me to say something, and I'd burst in laughter and say: "People, nothing to talk about. Let's get to building the water well. The power is not in me, but in yourself. The King of the Jungle is no more. This belong to the little animals. And, by the way, keep an eye open for any would-be lion among us. NO LION NO PROBLEM!" Applause!!!! Ovation!!!

<It may relate to the use of humour, in which case it is already answered. Animal Farm is basically humour isnt it? I mean a major aspect is to see the funny side irrispective of the seriousness of the situation.>

No, Animal Farm is about the lion rising among the little animals AFTER the revolution. It's warning us, not against the revolution, but against the lion-pigs.

<<What do I think of 'post above' which was "Animal Farm all over again"?>>

<Its about the bribes sheperds, paid by the wolves. Thats a major
problem. The taxpayer pays the salaries of the MPs but some
other interest gets their service.>

Yep, they get paid twice, for a bad service. So who's protecting the little animals?:confused:

<THey are described in the New Testament as Hirelings who should get between the sheep and the threat to protect them.
But being mere hirelings they protect themselves first by leaving the sheep for safety they in effect put the sheep between them and the wolf - the good sheperd gives his life for the sheep.
The Axis of Evil will take them all- sheep, sheperd and wolf as fits.>

I don't know, I see the sheep getting fleeced and then the shepherd selling the stuff down the line, but they are given the chance to reelect--did you know the shepherd was democratic?--their good shepherd. And this fact makes the sheep feel good about themselves, they got a democratically elected shepherd!

The word sounds bombastic enough to make them feel good: DEMOCRACY, by the sheep, and for the sheep. We the sheep...

Re Easter Is:
"The sadest thing about our society I think, is that we have created people with a very solid understanding of how the world and universe works, and our place in it. But because this knowledge leads to long term views that are at odds with short term gain, we ridicule their opinions and suggestions, and refuse to learn more about the world ourselves."

<I have to disagree entirely. It's not that simple. The scientific laws as economic laws are chosen and the academics go along with the money and the promotion same as the politicians.
The outcome is planned and those working for the short term gains are actually working also for the long term goal as planned
unwittingly. The dynasmics of the laws of money/so called science and learning are producing a specific outcome, because it is an Axis of Evil its criminal dysfunction is starting to show up in
many areas of life on planet Earth. When the ship finally hits the 'fan' (the iceberg) the result will be one world govt, population reduced by billions and industrilisation wound back likewise etc. This is what the world summit meetings are all about and Dingler had better be prepared to accept that there is no shortage of scientics (hirelings) who have a set response to the 'wolf' that threatens the sheep (planet and life) that have a major input into these meetings. Its the power (love) of money, not the love of truth.
Dingler is one of the victims of the education system which trains people to be naive, thinking higher education is about getting closer to the truth, that all scientists agree and believe the same,
which is only true.
Meanwhile the politicians work hard to deceive everyone that they arent on the same ship.>

Well, Bader, we know "nothing is what it seems in the jungle," since there's so much camouflage on the part of the predators and on the part of the sheep as well (hypocrisy) but I think he's well meant. The scientists too are part of the jungle, and if they "question things" too much they don't get the money for their favorite pet project, like studying the life of mice.

We know though the life of people is more important...

Regrettably we, black sheeps, don't get paid for it and even risk our lives. Isn't it funny?:confused:

[donquijote]

'NO LION, NO PROBLEM... - No LEON, NO PROBLEMA - NESSUN LEONE, NESSUN PROBLEMA...'. (English, Spanish, Italian)

We need it in Russian, anyone?

[Bader]

Well thats about it, no point in splitting hairs it simply personal choice of words. I note the reference to the persecution complex
and camoflage- careful now!

Havent seen Skolnicks report for a while. Checkout Counterpunch.org from time to time good stuff here as well.

Referring to science in recent posts, I will have sounded extreme but recall Brian StClair Corcoran the NZ scientist saying the world based on the second law of thermodynamics is heading for self-destruct economically, politically and socially.
Well the world summit meeting are all about trying to fight the engines we have set in motion against ourselves.
Getting everyone on bikes wont change that.
He calls for a shift to comply with the Law of Economy of Energy
which relates to the natural energy cycle, we're fighting nature
and nature will win. Nature will beat the dumb scientists hands down. But they wont feel any shame anymore than economists standing up to their knees in their own mess, like the Priests of Baal praying for rain to break Elijah's draught, because the majority look up to them because they have been to University, therefore they must know the truth and only the truth.
I cant copy paragraphs as his statement re copywrite forbids it.
Its not chance or human nature, the hidden hand is very much conscious of what its doing. So the lions puppets, call them
smaller lions/pigs what ever have the advantage of knowledge
ahead of the world in general and map out the road ahead. The
Masons have always had a dimension in relation to science and often the ones publically credited with discovering something is false, even Einstein wasnt original yet we are educated to worship his mind. Ancient civilisations have shown that advanced knowledge has been available to certain people, the oldest story is it is the dark side depicted by the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and the original Lion Satan.
Some have claimed that the major powers have all tried to penetrate the occultic side to achieve a more advanced knowledge than the others since the second world war. This is why certain artifacts of the ancient powers/kingdoms have been plundered and sort after eg the idea of the Holy Grail. Same game. Raiding the Bagdad museum may well have been of greater importance in the quest for superior power than the oil.
Lets not forget that Bush is a Bonesman and so is Kerry, they are riding the ageless pheonix and think they have the inside running while us mere mortals are excess baggage.
Take Iraq. What difference is there regards the respect for human life in contract to the agenda, muslim Arabs, Christian Arabs, Jewish Arabs, various other Arabs, the troops of the US, Britain and several nations supporting the Machine. They are all
going to waste, Depleted Uranium knows no friend from foe.
Even the Pentagon doesnt care. Those who did have been
replaced and sent to the Russian Front. Whats new.
The same fasci flank the US Presidents podium with an eagle orb on a pole as the Nazi, as Pagan Rome, and that goes back to ancient Babylon. Now we have gone full circle.

You put it right- nothing is what it seems in the jungle.

[donquijote]

Woj is not around but we discussed this topic often. And the final word on it (until proven otherwise) is: the water well is better than the water dam...

(Bader, I used the website you mentioned)

"In postcolonial India, the promise of progress, of freedom, has been linked to techno-economic control by the state, which provides a comfortable life for its elite. But the disenfranchised experience this development as a war against them. Their lands and livelihood have become collateral for the dreams of the privileged."

Large Dams in India: Temples or Burial Grounds?
By ROBERT JENSEN

How do we measure progress? How are lives improved by progress? Who benefits from -- and who suffers the consequences of -- progress?

These are central questions today as nation-states and corporations pursue what are typically called "development" projects. One of the most controversial of these in recent years is a series of more than 3,000 dams in India's Narmada River Valley. Government officials say these dams and an extensive irrigation system will bring electricity and water to areas of the country suffering from drought, and the technocrats insist that it will work.

But other voices challenge this rhetoric of technological triumph, most notably the Narmada Bachao Andolan (Save the Narmada Movement). Arguing that the government exaggerates the benefits and underestimates the costs, this nonviolent people's movement since the mid-1980s has focused attention on the human suffering and environmental damage that comes with "big dams." These dams flood vast areas and displace hundreds of thousands, mostly peasants and adivasi (tribal) people, while promises of relocation and resources usually prove to be illusory. Just one of the dams, Sardar Sarovar, could uproot as many as a half-million people.

In August 2004, Angana Chatterji was one of three members of an independent commission who went to the Narmada, visiting villages and listening to more than 1,400 people at hearings. The commission investigated violations in resettlement and rehabilitation policies connected to the Narmada Sagar, one of the Narmada dams. Chatterji, N.C. Saxena (a member of the Indian government's National Advisory Council and former secretary of the Planning Commission of India), and Harsh Mander (former director of ActionAid India) will submit their report this fall to the National Advisory Council, headed by Congress Party leader Sonia Gandhi.

Chatterji, a Calcutta-born anthropology professor at the California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco, described the situation in the Narmada Valley as desperate and cited one villager's statement to sum up the sense of despair: "There is no future here; we are living out our days, focused on survival. The Narmada gave us life; they have turned her against us."

Despite the setbacks, Chatterji not only continues but intensifies her advocacy work through her association with the Narmada Bachao Andolan and groups such as the U.S.-based International Rivers Network, for which she is a board member. Chatterji is passionate and sharp-tongued, with an ability to bring the complex issues into clear, and sometimes painful, focus. In a play on an often-quoted comment of India's first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, Chatterji began our conversation by saying, "Dams are not the temples of India. They are her burial grounds." In an interview in September, she explained why the Narmada struggle remains crucial.


Robert Jensen: Before we talk about specifics of the Narmada project, explain the larger context. What's at stake?

Angana Chatterji: Adivasi and peasant movements reject the assumption that development justifies cultural annihilation. Since 1947, 4,300 large dams alone in India have displaced over 42 million. Adivasis are about 8 percent of India's population but more than 40 percent of the country's displaced. India's record of irresponsible development has placed its most vulnerable in peril -- 1,000 more dams are being built, even as food, security, and self-determination remain out of reach for 350 million of India's poorest citizens. In postcolonial India, the promise of progress, of freedom, has been linked to techno-economic control by the state, which provides a comfortable life for its elite. But the disenfranchised experience this development as a war against them. Their lands and livelihood have become collateral for the dreams of the privileged.

In the Narmada Valley, different imaginations of nation building collide. The confrontation with state-sponsored big development leaves marginalized people voiceless in decision-making, as local dreams of self-determination and survival, of respect, heritage and history, are jettisoned. The key questions remain: Whose lives matters? Who has a right to life? The Narmada struggle leads us to ask: What good is a nation if it refuses to protect all its citizens?

more...

http://www.counterpu...en09212004.html