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What would it take for Russia to be #1?

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#21 donquijote


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Posted 18 May 2003 - 08:45 PM

<One could ask what kind of number 1 are we really talking about.>

Good question.

<The playground bully in the global village or the best society to live and raise a family in?>

The latter.

<After seventy odd years trapped in an experiement, initiated from abroad by the planets mentals, one can't expect the Russians to get it all together in a decade, more so after being plundered by the globalists hidding behind such lovely sounding policies like free market.>

Fancy name, ah?

<I would expect that they would have tremendous energy for
creativety after being crushed and distorted for so long. It may take a cultural revival to free this. I believe human resources are the greatest resource.>

Rightly so. But when moral is so low... Russia proves that the human resources can be demoralized and ultimately decimated...

<They have experienced the worst of the extreme left and right
so perhaps within a cultural revival they will find a sane
alternative and I wouldn't be looking at a vege soup of Scandanavian bits and pieces nor have everybody riding bikes on special highways.>

Exactly, the worst of both the left and the right. But Scandinavia combines the best of worst. Something to think about...

<Growth can only come from stopping the bleeding- corruption,
debt and foreign investment.
In my country our biggest export is profits from foreign investment. A mere 6% is reinvested by the foreign investors.
When is the penny going to drop, isn't it strange how every country needs foreign investment to progress, just like every
country has to sell more than it buys. Both are absurd.
Picture a street of houses, every man goes out and mowes someone elses lawns in the street until some one had a brain wave and said hey, why don't we just stay home and mow our own!>

Exactly, it ain't so much investment as having a system that works. But do you have a proposal in mind?

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#22 Bader


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Posted 19 May 2003 - 08:57 AM

Hello Donquijote,
I don't have a system or a proposal. I do have a philosophy
and that is based on the sovereignty of the individual and systems and isms have proved to be amongst the indivduals biggest enemies.
I agree that Switzerland is a good political model because it is the
only country that came make any real claim to being a democracy.
The rest who claim to be are shams.
All policy is derived from philosophy or ideology. They either
work towards control or freedom of the individual, their effects can't be hidden, not even by political claptrapping or the propoganda of mainstream media.
I hearterly agree with you that systems are supposed to be designed to serve the people not people created to serve a system. Likewise the goals of prosperity, social justice and freedom. These require a democratic finance system to go with
a true democratic political system. Without money there isn't much freedom. Let a handfull control the money and they control
the government and the peoples sovereignty.
You opted for humanism.
Humanism to my understanding is the foundation of atheism,
marxism, nazism, zionism, socialism and all those other isms that
all come from the collectivist stables. They believe in the group
of humanity not the individual who are expendable for the benefit
of the group which is ruled by an elite. I equate these with the will
to control not will to freedom. That doesn't sound like you
according to the rest of what you said.
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#23 donquijote


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Posted 19 May 2003 - 05:13 PM

Thank you for your comments, Bader...

<I agree that Switzerland is a good political model because it is the
only country that came make any real claim to being a democracy.
The rest who claim to be are shams.>

Definitely the best. I must admit that I have a strong anarchist influence (total agreement insofar to their critique of both capitalism and communism; consider me an admirer of Orwell), so naturally the Swiss are my favorites... However, the many benefits of the Scandinavian system are unsurpassed. Maybe I'm wrong, and so we should find out. Anyways I bring 'em into the picture to mean: "Hey, America ain't the only choice, and not certainly the best," mistake that you are still suffering from...

<Humanism to my understanding is the foundation of atheism,
marxism, nazism, zionism, socialism and all those other isms that
all come from the collectivist stables. They believe in the group
of humanity not the individual who are expendable for the benefit
of the group which is ruled by an elite. I equate these with the will
to control not will to freedom. That doesn't sound like you
according to the rest of what you said.>

I arrived to "humanism" by elimination, and wanting to emphasize that the human being should never, ever, be at the service of the system, be it the CCCP or Wall Street. (I have a better name and I'll publish it soon.) Anyways what's the ideology of Curitiba, Brazil? Well, they are doing things, and that's the bottom line.

Curitiba and its visionary mayor

Residents of Curitiba, Brazil, think they live in the best city in the world, and a lot of outsiders agree. Curibita has 17 new parks, 90 miles of bike paths, trees everywhere, and traffic and garbage systems that officials from other cities come to study. Curibita's mayor for twelve years, Jaime Lerner, has a 92 per cent approval rating.

There is nothing special about Curitiba's history, location or population. Like all Latin American cities, the city has grown enormously - from 150,000 people in the 1950s to 1.6 million now. It has its share of squatter settlements, where fewer than half the people are literate. Curibita's secret, insofar that it has one, seems to be simple willingness from the people at the top to get their kicks from solving problems.

Those people at the top started in the 1960s with a group of young architects who were not impressed by the urban fashion of borrowing money for big highways, massive buildings, shopping malls and other showy projects [America?]. They were thinking about the environment and about human needs. They approached Curibita's mayor, pointed to the rapid growth of the city and made a case for better planning.

The mayor sponsored a contest for a Curibita master plan. He circulated the best entries, debated them with the citizens, and then turned the people's comments over to the upstart architects, asking them to develop and implement a final plan.

Jaime Lerner was one of these architects. In 1971 he was appointed mayor by the then military government of Brazil.

Given Brazil's economic situation, Lerner had to think small, cheap and participatory - which was how he was thinking anyway. He provided 1.5 million tree seedlings to neighbourhoods for them to plant and care for. ('There is little in the architecture of a city that is more beautifully designed than a tree,' says Lerner.)

He solved the city's flood problems by diverting water from lowlands into lakes in the new parks. He hired teenagers to keep the parks clean.

He met resistance from shopkeepers when he proposed turning the downtown shopping district into a pedestrian zone, so he suggested a thirty-day trial. The zone was so popular that shopkeepers on the other streets asked to be included. Now one pedestrian street, the Rua das Flores, is lined with gardens tended by street children.

Orphaned or abandoned street children are a problem all over Brazil. Lerner got each industry, shop and institution to 'adopt' a few children, providing them with a daily meal and a small wage in exchange for simple maintenance gardening or office chores.

Another Lerner innovation was to organise the street vendors into a mobile, open-air fair that circulates through the city's neighbourhoods.

Concentric circles of local bus lines connect to five lines that radiate from the centre of the city in a spider web pattern. On the radial lines, triple-compartment buses in their own traffic lanes carry three hundred passengers each. They go as fast as subway cars, but at one-eightieth the construction cost.

The buses stop at Plexiglas tube stations designed by Lerner. Passengers pay their fares, enter through one end of the tube, and exit from the other end. This system eliminates paying on board, and allows faster loading and unloading, less idling and air pollution, and a sheltered place for waiting - though the system is so efficient that there isn't much waiting. There isn't much littering either. There isn't time.

Curitiba's citizens separate their trash into just two categories, organic and inorganic, for pick-up by two kinds of trucks. Poor families in squatter settlements that are unreachable by trucks bring their trash bags to neighbourhood centres, where they can exchange them for bus tickets or for eggs, milk, oranges and potatoes, all bought from outlying farms.

The trash goes to a plant (itself built of recycled materials) that employs people to separate bottles from cans from plastic. The workers are handicapped people, recent immigrants, alcoholics.

Recovered materials are sold to local industries. Styrofoam is shredded to stuff quilt for the poor. The recycling programme costs no more than the old landfill, but the city is cleaner, there are more jobs, farmers are supported and the poor get food and transportation. Curitiba recycles two-thirds of it garbage - one of the highest rates of any city, north or south.

Curitiba builders get a tax break if their projects include green areas.

Jaime Lerner says, 'There is no endeavour more noble than the attempt to achieve a collective dream. When a city accepts as a mandate its quality of life; when it respects the people who live in it; when it respects the environment; when it prepares for future generations, the people share the responsibility for that mandate, and this shared cause is the only way to achieve that collective dream.'

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#24 Bader


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Posted 20 May 2003 - 08:16 AM

That's incredible Donquijote.
It speaks for itself. The more people are involved the saner
and healthier society could become. The success was obviously
due to the public being involved in the decission making and
consequently feeling they directly owned the ideas and the
projects and the energy and inginuity that it conjured up simply
blows away the stupid bureaucratic- economic systems. It
doesn't really make a lot of difference whether the bureaucratic-
economic system is the old state sector model or the market
model imposed on a public body, because they both are based
on a two dimentional view that can't appreciate or calculate the
productiveness of the human.
The Soviet boast was that it was going to prove that utopia would be produced by a materialistic and scientific approach to
reality. The West is basically the same except the controls
factor. Alan Greenspan is a materialistic scientist who is just as incapable of understanding and incorporating the human
dimension and its ingeniousness into his tools of theory than the soviet bureaucrats. ( apart from the likelyhood of the mindset
on both sides having been created in the same stables)
What was also important was that the Mayor was brave enough
to go with it. I bet he had some opposition from those who thought they were God's gift man on his council. I am also wondering if the market model hasn't been legislated down on the local bodies there as the Chief Executive Officer would have all the power not the Mayor.
If you ever want to get a handle on the bureaucratic madness
the western universities have unleashed on the world have a look at John Ralston Saul's book "Voltair's Barstards".
But lets not get away from the bigger issue. The problem is not
the lack of designing better ways to do things otherwise nations
would simply be copying the more successful ways as you have
listed many in Scandanavia. Systems and those who run them are controlled by fanancial restraints and legal ones. The biggest
and universal hurdle is the exponential growth of debt. This is totally unnecessary, the monetarising of peoples time and energy
into the future can be done just as easily by their own
properly constituted and accountable structure as a private bank
the difference being they wouldn't owe themselves anything.
Some of the U.S Presidents have been murdered because they
dared to change this around so a money system would be the servant and not the master.
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#25 donquijote


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Posted 20 May 2003 - 08:04 PM

<The more people are involved the saner
and healthier society could become. The success was obviously
due to the public being involved in the decission making and
consequently feeling they directly owned the ideas and the
projects and the energy and inginuity that it conjured up simply
blows away the stupid bureaucratic- economic systems. >

Hey, Bader, I totally agree with you.

I got this article I wrote a few days ago that pretty much sums up what you're saying...

OK, all those wonderful ideas are in the book 'Natural Capitalism,'*
but there's no political will to change... The 'lion' is both hungry
and stupid...
Well, give him the 'whip' and then the reward... If we, the little
animals, are to survive, the lion must be tamed...

Here's the whip...

*A summary of the book follows the stories...


(This little, tiny story is part of a series, in which I explain to my
little daughter how things work.)

Politics works like this: Big People of Big Country buy Big People of
Little Country, who, by the way, will be elected in "democratic
elections" thanks to big bucks; Big People of Big Country give big
loans to Little Country (of course, to buy "made in Big Country"); Big
People of Little Country pocket a big chunk, without ever investing in
real development (education, health, the environment, etc); Little
People of Little Country work for ever to pay back what they never
got; Big People of Little Country thank Big People of Big Country in
the name of Little Country, and promise to repay the big debt; and
Little People of Little Country get big promises, just like Little
People of Big Country. And they lived happily ever after...


(This is part of a series of POLITICALLY CORRECT stories for little
children, who otherwise may not be ready to live in the Jungle.)

One day the King of the Jungle, tired of being called a "Tyrant,"
gathered the most cunning animals in the kingdom, chief among them the
Foxes... He said to them: "It's mighty unjust that I am not recognized
for what I am. You know full well that the best of my leftovers, if
any, go to the Little Animals... Well, I want you to write LAWS, so
from now on it'll be them, and not me, who would rule over this God
chosen kingdom..."

After a few months of hard deliberations (and a few "private parties"
and expensive trips) the Foxes (now turned politicians) returned with
a long, long book of laws written in a language so hard to understand
to the Little Animals that they thought it was old Greek. After
translation, it started like this: "The animals with a mane will be
treated like kings; the animals with paws and teeth will be above the
Laws; and the animals who will represent the interests of the Little
Animals, us, will be granted a raise in benefits and status... Of
course, ALL FORMS OF DISCRIMINATION will be considered ILLEGAL, and
will result in the Lion eating the Little Animal..."


Once upon a time, in the deep jungle, lived a Lion and a Monkey... One
day the Monkey, tired of the Lion always getting the lion share, and
seeing that such injustice represented a danger to all the species of
the jungle, demanded justice... The Lion, yawning and stretching,
said: "You would have to have paws and sharp teeth..." Then the
Monkey, who was very clever, devised a plan: He would go to the
costume store, and look like a lion...

When the Lion saw him, noticing that the new lion wasn't a match for
him, and fearing competition, killed him on the spot... before the
indifferent look of the little animals of the jungle... And that's how
the Law of the Jungle was re-established one more time...

NOTE: Other monkeys survived him...


One day all the little animals went up to the King of the Jungle and
complained about their poverty, and in particular about the fact that
every time, during the dry season, they had to travel long distances
to drink the precious fluid, and demanded a water well be built for
them... They cited how the resources that they contributed to the
kingdom were wasted in wars and fancy projects to the tastes of the
King... He, however, replied with all kinds of excuses: the lack of
resources, that it wasn't a matter of him not wanting it, but that it
was a matter of priorities --which was one of his favorite words...

Meanwhile, an Owl --who had very good eyes-- had been observing life
in the jungle, and thought this way: "Every time there's a dry season
the little animals must come to the little dirty water hole where the
Lion waits for them... Had they been well fed and strong, he would
have had to run after them and even risk resistance..."

And that's how the Owl landed an important --and well paid-- post in
the brand new Astronomy Department created by the King of the
Jungle... to the effect of exploring life in other planets...


For decades, environmentalists have been warning that human economic
activity is exceeding the planet's limits. Of course we keep pushing
those limits back with clever new technologies; yet living systems are
undeniably in decline.

These trends need not be in conflict
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#26 Bader


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Posted 21 May 2003 - 04:31 AM

I like your children stories Donquijote.
Parents are going to have to compete more and more against the
systems education and television to correct their childrens education.
Books like Natural Capital show what a flat earth society we
still are. There have always been people who could see outside the square and publish such books from time to time but main stream media and publishing has been tied up for some time
and similarly controls on what texts and schools of though that
prevail in the various depts of the universities. Few people in the system are prepared to risk their carreers and future bank balances by rocking the boat.
The biggest dynamic that causes the waste of our natural capital
is debt and its rapacious growth. The same created trade wars
that lead to hot wars.
The plundering of our natural capital has been monetarised by the debt money system. Most people don't bother to get their heads around the money system, which can be rather difficult at first because of the myths and fables subtly ingrained into our
thinking, not by accident either. The international bankers know about natural capital like a lot of other things and eventually one or two stumble past the fables and get a glimpse
of a few realities but still miss the core.
By the end of the 18 hundreds people could see the future that
new technology was going to provide. They could see in the new century that people could have increasingly better standards of living while having to work less. The first world war (application
of shock-horror) slapped that vision out of their heads. The
benefits haven't passed on as they should, people are working longer to maintain the same standard of living and in fact
poverty is increasing in the developed world. The slight of hand is in the system.
If you check out Joan Veons research on the global forces
developing at present the natural capital will be captured and
appropriated in due course. You can find her site at
womansgroup.org She gets the copies of the original documents that politicians never read because they can be hundreds of pages long and they just sell their people down the river.
We are digressing from Russia.
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#27 Bader


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Posted 22 May 2003 - 08:53 AM

In your opening Andrea,
you state all great nations need to take a look... Globalisation
you obviously accept has superceded nationalism. National governments no longer have that freedom to take a look and choose what they think is best.
You queried the Hegel dynamics. The synthesis of a Communism
and Capitalism conflict is fascism, which is the current face of
globalisation. Fascism is the marriage between the State power
and Corporate power. Who's winning from the bombing and rebuilding?
The perspective regarding the Trajectory sounds like metaphysical evolution. Nice cover for those making the power
game moves. F.D. Roosevelt would have said, if it happened
that way it would have been because it was planned that way.
Have you heard that some believed that the Great Depression was caused by sun spots? Lets the bankers and the economists off the hook.
You are quite right in saying it is wrong for economics and
social democracy to be out of balance. Supposed generation after generation of governments and world leaders have been trying to do their best for mankind. Is the continuing inbalance
a matter of chance, complexity of the "science" or design?
The next question is, the measure of the inbalance, is it being lost to reality or is it being appropriated by the fortunate in positions of power?
If it's the later how likely is it that they would agree with a restructuring that will strip them of privilage and power?
Getting back to the issue regarding Russia after what the Russians have been through over the last century, I am reminded of the founding fathers of the US and the constitution they
designed after their experience in Europe and the abuse of power and lack of social justice, not by metaphysical chance.
The US got off to a great history in a relatively short period of time but the termites have got in. There are other things besides the constitution that made the US great. The Russians could do
well to study them and then learn from the mistakes the US made
allowing the termites to undermine the nation. A classic example
is the Fed. Reserve which now effectively owns the nation.
That brings us back to the questions you had about the power struggle to control and use the U.S.
Some are concerned that it is being used and then will be destroyed as Sadam Hussein was. I can appreciate there are some worrying signs.
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#28 Stephen Volk B.

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Posted 22 May 2003 - 10:52 PM

BADER wrote, "I would expect that they would have tremendous energy for creativity after being crushed and distorted for so long."

Actually, it is that crushing stress which gave them the creativity they've had. Let's face it. There is no couch-potato creativity. When we are anaesthetized into being "addicted to mediocrity" through too much materialism for the ultimate benefit of a handful of globalists, opportunities for real creativity pass us right by.

On the other hand, Kruschev - who knew good friends of mine, the Garst family - I believe was on the right track when he was censoring certain types of art and calling it "dogshit." Was the "dogshit" the product of spontaneous inner decay, or did our usual non-benefactors the globalists also have a hand in that?

What in the world ever happened to the positive paranoia the Russians had toward the Bilderbergers in the time of Pasternak? If Americans had been as fortunate to have had that type of paranoia, they wouldn't be in the police-state mess they're in today.

Too, we can't define "creativity" in terms of globalist-style entrepreneurship. I wasn't born on this planet just to end up as one of their slaves, nor were the Russians. But that's exactly what's going to happen now: unless both the right and the left quickly mobilize, without getting infiltrated, to combat this globalist tyranny once and for all. Or else, there will be a lot of positive creativity, but within the confines of tyrannical suppression and constriction and not at all within freedom.
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#29 donquijote


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Posted 22 May 2003 - 11:12 PM

<Actually, it is that crushing stress which gave them the creativity they've had. Let's face it. There is no couch-potato creativity. When we are anaesthetized into being "addicted to mediocrity" through too much materialism for the ultimate benefit of a handful of globalists, opportunities for real creativity pass us right by.>

You'll probably like the article I just posted, "Russia doesn't need Western money".


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#30 Bader


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Posted 23 May 2003 - 10:05 AM

The tremendous creativity I suggested has been latent due to the
lack of free or positive environment, just as you referred to the
case of being addicted to mediocrity, Stephen VB. I referred to
creativity over and above what they may have had and as in the globalist environment, and a communist one is a form of globalism
anyway, there are opportunities in avenues that suit the system
and ideology. Once a system changes for the better and frees up obviously the opportunity for creativity has to increase.
When the Reformation began to break the power of the mediaeval Roman church over much of European life the result was the Renaissance- a break out from addiction to mediocrity.
The left and right cannot fight globalism (fascism) since they are both swallowed up by it. That shows how effective the Hegel
dynamic works.
The socialist won't fight it because it will bring the world to the point of a one world government, just as the U.S. New World Order will. It's the socialist who are going into frenzy in French and Dutch streets fighting the nationalists who are trying to resist globalist policies, calling the anti-globalists fascists. The socialists don't give a damn how many jobs of the natives are lost to foreigners who will bring down the cost of labour as well.
The socialists have also been consolidating through anti-war protest.
President Bush could be considered their best modern leader
given his contribution to their revival. As Mr Bush continues his years of wars (jihad) as he said he would, the demand for a
global government over all nations to end wars will likely reach feverpitch. The end justifies the means.
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#31 svetochka


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Posted 23 May 2003 - 02:01 PM

Beatiful theory, donquijote, only if it was this simple....

I am going to have to agree with Rebel on his views.

Also, Education & health care needs to be available for all people, right? Great, who is going to foot the bill? If it will be gov't, then taxes must be tremendous, if it will be private sector, then people will have to work, employers pitch in for the spendings. THe rest will be paid by people themselves. Those that will not work, will still get the some sort of public assistance, else it will not be available to every one. Or is unemployment goign to be at 0% in your ideal Russia? (this reminds me of US health care & education).
Back to $$$$. How do you generate the revenue for footing the bill?

One more thing, are you talking about Russia as in what's left of it now? If so, what do they have left? When people are talking about Russia's wealth, they generally tend to think of it as it is still the former Russia. Now, what does Russia still have left in terms of resources? How many major ports(very important for economy) does Russia still have? It is currently largely relying on ports of Ukraine & Baltic States....
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#32 Stephen Volk B.

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 02:31 PM

I don't think Vladimir Putin wants to go down as one of the weakest Russian rulers ever to be written in Russian history. You would think he would want more dignity, more legacy, than the mere benefit of "behind-the-scenes money" and to be willfully manipulated in such an ongoing weak way.

For his political and historical survival, Putin will show the Bush puppet - and those who control Bush - that PUTIN is the greatest chess player. Otherwise, Putin goes down in history as a mouse which everyone laughs at.

When Putin arrived in Kananaskis, he should have been greeted with great marching bands, tremendous media hype, the warmest welcome in the media. Instead, the globalists have him slinking in and out like a little mouse. No wonder Russia isn't great any more....
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#33 donquijote


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Posted 23 May 2003 - 07:20 PM

<Beatiful theory, donquijote, only if it was this simple....>

OK, a Swiss system with political and economic diversity. Each commune having their own policies and economic options. Some capitalist, some cooperative... Let people 'vote with their feet'. Likewise health care can be integrated into either the capitalist or cooperative enterprise, why not?

Argentina, a model to Russia?
I couldn't think of two nations that are more alike. Both have been ransacked by capitalism, both know communism is not a solution, and both got an educated workforce that can make new things happen...

Neither socialism nor capitalism

Two years ago, many workers in Argentina faced unemployment and misery. But instead of giving up, they have taken over their bankrupt companies, giving both the firms and the workers a new lease on life

Sunday, May 18, 2003,Page 12

A metal worker piles bronze bundles at the Cooperativa Unin y Fuerza Ltd metal works in the Avellaneda district of Buenos Aires.

In Argentina, where president-elect Nestor Kirchner has pledged to revive the ailing economy, workers are taking matters into their own hands, rescuing bankrupt factories and their own livelihoods.

Faced with unemployment and misery, hundreds of employees have taken over their bankrupt companies, giving them a new lease on life and in some cases earning far more than fellow workers who still have a boss.

Two years ago, workers at Fuerza y Union -- "Strength and Union" -- a metalworks factory in Buenos Aires, barely could make ends meet. "Now we earn about three times more than our colleagues in traditional factories," cooperative president Roberto Salcedo said as he sat down to a lunch of grilled sandwich meat at the aging factory's lunch room.

The first months after the cooperative was formed in January 2001 were hard, with no capital whatsoever, no outside help and little business as clients mistrusted a company run by its workers where decisions were taken by consensus, said Salcedo.

But eventually work orders started coming in, legal hurdles were surmounted, and workers at some 200 companies followed the example of their Fuerza y Union colleagues, turning their bankrupt companies into workers' cooperatives.

"We are just saving our jobs so we can feed our families," said Salcedo, an electrician by trade who never had any managerial training but says he is learning as he goes.

"This is nothing political," he said.

Yet, most of the 53 workers -- they call themselves partners -- at the cooperative say they support Kirchner, who was elected by default after his only rival, former president Carlos Menem, pulled out of the presidential race on Wednesday.

Kirchner, 53, who was governor of Santa Cruz province for 12 years, has pledged to pursue the policies that enabled the government of incumbent president Eduardo Duhalde to achieve a modest recovery from the worst economic crisis in Argentina's history.

None of the Fuerza y Union workers has a kind word for Menem, saying the tough free-market policies and the currency's dollar peg he adopted during his 1989-1999 presidency were largely to blame for today's economic woes.

"What we are doing here is something that emerged from a crisis, not a model for how companies should generally work," said Salcedo, as a group of workers poured copper melted from scrap metal into a cylinder.

The factory is ancient and machines are rusty, but the workers' enthusiasm is palpable.

A few kilometers away, on the edge of a notorious slum, shipyard workers get ready to refloat a barge they repaired. The 40,000 pesos ($US14,000) they charged for the 20-day job will help keep their Almirante Brown cooperative afloat as they work on more ambitious plans.

In recent weeks, US and Dutch companies have expressed strong interest in subcontracting barge construction to the 65-person cooperative located on the docks of the Buenos Aires port.

The cooperative workers managed to cut a deal with the owner of the shipyard at a time when he was to lay them off for six months. Since December 2002, the cooperative has been leasing the 44,000 m2 installations from the owner, who has since declared bankruptcy.

Alberto Caro, a lawyer who has been named president of the cooperative movement, has helped keep creditors at bay by convincing authorities the workers could not be held accountable for the owner's debts.

Elsewhere he has waged legal battle to legalize the employees' takeover of bankrupt factories and even at times preventing police from evicting the workers.

"It's neither socialism nor capitalism, but a bit of both," said Caro, impeccably dressed in a navy blue suit -- a gift from grateful Fuerza y Union workers.

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#34 Bader


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Posted 24 May 2003 - 08:43 PM

What great news. When the IMF and all its fabled wisdom has
ruined a country, ordinary people who step out of the conditioning
of the system and just follow their instincts can make something out of the ruins of the rulers of the world.
I would be surprised if that was published by corporate media.
It should headline news across the world given the severity of
economic problems everywhere.
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#35 rayko


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Posted 25 May 2003 - 12:20 PM

Just some observations:

For whatever reasons, the Russians don't trust anyone, not even their own kind.

The Russian Mafia makes it's Italian counterpart look like boy scouts.

Weeding out these two problems will take more time than the Russians are willing to invest.
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#36 donquijote


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Posted 27 May 2003 - 02:40 AM

<What's the solution for Russia? That depends on what the problem is.>

I think the problem lies with the systems mainly. True, such a lofty idea such as communism didn't work in the Soviet Union, so something must be wrong with the Russian people, right? WRONG, it didn't work either in Germany, Cuba or China...

Likewise hardcore capitalism ain't working in Russia, so one should assume that something is wrong with the people... WRONG, capitalism has only worked to make elites rich while the little people scrape a living, from Argentina to America...

It must be something new, either well proven democratic socialism --Scandinavia, even Canada a bit-- or try something new like cooperativism, which is causing a revival in Argentina's economy.

Anyways, maybe the Russian people ain't fools after all, and they don't want to work hard neither for the State nor for a capitalist pig, but for themselves...

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#37 Guest_Pessimist_*

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Posted 27 May 2003 - 05:20 AM

>>>>What would it take for Russia to be #1?

Return to socialism is the only viable option.
It is not gonna happen, though. Russians are tottaly brainwashed.
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#38 Bader


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Posted 27 May 2003 - 06:14 AM

I'll back you on something new Donquijote,
democratic socialism is by and large what many western countries
developed in the fifties and sixties until The US moved off gold onto OPEC and began to export their inflation to the rest of the world during the seventies causing stagflation all over the place. Then the democratic democracies arrived at a debt crisis a lot sooner than they would have and that was the pretext for
the free market ideology to step in because of the debt and the
assest of the nations were stripped to pay off debt but of course debt wasn't fully cleared so it built up again because the money system should have been reformed not assests sold.
No nation or economy can function without money. Its like oil to machinery. Unless you reform the money system the same old
problems will arrise no matter what system you try.
So if any people want to try something new they have to determine that there are no presumptions or sacred cows, the
slate has to be totally wiped to start again.
Debt caused the democracies to become colonies of the IMF
and when they dutifully adopted the free market reforms everything except the money system was reformed.
The appologists would argue that banking was reformed when
they deregulated the banking but all that did was make them free to create debt at a faster rate on the pretext of competition that was prior to that considered imprudent.
You are well aware that investment in the peoples health and education is a fundamental social infastructure, but the post-
democratic colonies public sectors services deminish because the
debt displaces budget figures.
The standard challenge that comes when anyone wants to see or find a better way is to say "how are you going to pay for it?"
That is an acknowledgement that the money issue is the base of the problems but they usually don't know why. The better
and realistic challenge is " what monetary reforms are you going to implement in order for it to work long term?"
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#39 machlud haul

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Posted 27 May 2003 - 12:10 PM

Very interesting subject and high quality debate about it! As someone wrote already, the important question is what sort of global leadership is meant. If one would think in a value free way and simply define the question as what Russia should do and in which way it should develope in order to regain an undisputed superpower status, then the short answer would be: it should create a highly efficient capitalistic economy. This would above all need a functioning and effective legal system which would protect investment and wealth creation. This is the one thing which unites the various models of capitalism that are in use in different parts of the world. Without this legal basis, it will be very difficult to compete in the long run. With its resources and size Russia will in any case maintain certain importance and influence, but without genuine dynamic capitalistic economy it probably can't compete in the highest level of superpower politics. In this quest nostalgia won't help. The path the Soviet Union tried did not work - sorry about that (well, not personally, not a tear for that system) but it's an amoral, evolutionary world: the survival of the most flexible - and as unfortunate it in many ways is, capitalism the crude a system as it is, is still the most efficient social system as regards to wealth (and power) creation.

For a liberal, such as myself, the lucky thing is that capitalism needs - or at least has needed - to enforce certain liberalistic values: protection of the law as already mentioned, respect of individual rights and as free and open flow of information as possible. This has not been the Russian tradition, but at the moment this is were the most powerful societies are, for good or bad. Personally I would begin this quest with the creation of a functioning and credible legal system which would enable a stable, fair and predictable operating environment for companies and individuals, whether domestic or foreign. In the short run this would mean increasing foreign involvement and influence, but in the long run it would do the same for Russian power and role in the wider world. Well, there are other values than power, the quest for which has not maybe been altogether beneficial in Russian history... At least illiberal methods and structures would not be most efficient, rather they would harm and postpone Russia's rise in the world. Not a small comfort.
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#40 Guest_kyosapat_*

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 06:52 AM

O'k I'm an outsider being an American. But I do want to see a strong Russia. Maybe it is because I all but proposed to a friend of mine from Moscow once (she said no she already had a boyfriend). But i've told her most of this once before though. I doubt she posts here so I figure I'm safe saying all this. If not Anna you know what I've said before so you know it is what I think. Some of this is things that would improve my own country or addresses problems destroying both it and Russia.Here in my opinion is what it would take:

1 Secure Russia's freedom. Do this by first arming your populace. Create and pass your own version of our second Ammendment and spell out that it is an individual right. Your crime rate will drop. Over here the States with the fewest controls on guns have the lowest crimes rates. In addition this will help prevent another Stalin from rising to power. Part of Freedom is the willingness to defend it from those who would trade it for security or simply take it to increase their own power. chairman Mao himself said" Politcal Power grows out the barrell of a gun". Now I would ask you: Would you trust a government with guns who won't trust you with a gun.

Secondly get the media completely out of the governments control. With that then they can report freely.

2 Good economics-Trash the Soviet economic system completely. Captilaism can be hard quiet often but in the long run will create the most gains for Russia. This first means private ownership of most everything. This means private property and no socialized medicine. This also though means breaking up monopolies and regulating the natural ones (such as the power company).

I would not recomend social welfare programs. They haven't worked here unless you count another useless generation of couch potatoes as a success. If you msut do it don't give much and make them work for it. But I digress I could write a paper on that alone. Just avoid it it was a mistake over here.

Rather keep government spending to a minimum and if you must spend any extra funds spend them on the military (prefablly conventional forces), infastructure, police and education. but not neccessarily in that order. Don't be afraid to make college kids pay part of the cost themselves (we do that over here). Also keep taxes low. Spend less that the government has coming in (even if it means no new spending in a given year).If the money isn't there don't spend it (not following this advice is another mistake we made). That flat tax we over here heard about Russia having is on the right track.

This will take discipline and patience but will help a great deal with getting Russia back on it's econmic feet in time.

3-Social issues- I probably agree with Jerry Falwell about 8 or 9 times out of 10. I don't think the government getting into people's bedrooms is neccessary. However sexual promiscuity is a definate problem. I do remember my friend in Moscow saying she didn't think there were very many people out there in Russia with HIV and that attitude scares me to death. I don't know if and how often she has gone to bed with somebody but that attitude alone is dangeruos.

Sex is both the lowest (prostitution and one night stands) and highest (married couple) way of expressing ones self to another. There is little good to come from sex outside of marraige. Either you will catch something, get pregnent, or both. HIV will kill you and Human Paploma virus I've heard will go througha condom like it wasn't even there . So much for safe sex. True you can still catch these things otherways but for most of us we are safe if we only sleep with our husband or wife.

Sticking to this will take individual decisons by individual people who want a better life not a wretched existance.

Abortion can do horrenduos damage to a woman's body even if a doctors office ( the abortionist will rarely tell you this though). rape and the mother life being threatened I can see but as I means of birth control I think that isn't such a good idea ( I won't even touch the rightness or wrongness today).But it can kill or permanently sterilize a woman and they nevr seem to talk about that.

Russia's low birth rate is a problem right now. Especially in light of having china right accross the border (see below).Russia can easily support witha strong eceonmoy and better farming processes (way to may russians are working in agriculture by the way).

To blindly follow or throw away tradition is a big mistake. Many good things are trashed in the effort to be modern. By the same token mnay good things in other countries are never adopted because of blind adherance to tradtion. Keep the good traditions. Examine each before you trash it.

4 foreign affairs- bag those who claim to be friends but aren't (France and most of the rest of Western Europe, Iran, China) and work with those who are (Britain, Austrailia, the USA). The econmoics systems in Europe are becoming more like China and the social system is collapsing. I would not be supprised if in 20 or 30 years Western Europe is mostly Muslim and radical Muslim at that. Why would a nation like Russia want to ally with a country like France anyway? We are talking about a country that never fired a shot to defend it's own capital from the Nazis. Decisions are made in Washington and London and if Russia wants to be part of them Moscow. But Russia must work with the west not against it.

China we must all realize is playing Russia and the U.S. of against each other to the benefit only of China. Most don't realize this But one thing about the Asian mind set (a good thing I think ) is the fact that they are more forward looking. The Chinese military has plans of where they want to be in 10,20,30 50 and 100 years. Some of those plans include the Russian far east being in Chinese control. Russian arms sold to China are aimed at Russia. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what china intends them for.

Finally- Russia has the resources (natural and human) that if applied correctly could give us yankees a run for our money. I would like to see a strong Russia that is an American ally.

Just my thoughts

Pat Macken
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