7545 replies to this topic

[woj1@cyberonic.]

Originally posted by Bader
B]
The animals lose water by the normal process of body function
(living) so they cant pee back what they borrowed and on top of that they have to find water to pay interest as well as replace what they used/lost.
Who really owns the natural benefits of life and the world, the
ideas and capabilities of animals to work in unison for mutual
benefit (social credit) ? Not a private Lion nor a Public lion.

Donq is more dangerous than he looks.
He's chosen the banana because they spray them with a solution that contains arsnic. He figures that when the Lion eventually dies it will die with a smile on its face and thus wont be suspected to be a homicide.

B]

The Lion eventually dies will die with a smile on its face;
not because he is poisoned but because he is selling the reconditioned water.
Arsenic in small doses is not the killier, ask on that matter the users of Colorado springs .

[donquijote]

Originally posted by Bader
DonQ we are back to the water-hole issue again arent we?

Howdy Bader, all of it was very good...

Yep, as you may see in the debate I launched at Google, I've proven that the lion eats you in so many ways, even when you don't borrow money. The Hungry Lion approves a transaction he could easily have denied so in effect he can eat you. What's worse the Hungry Lion goes after the poor, not the well off. It is the poor who must do a balancing act with with little money not to be eaten by overdraft fees. But well, that's life in the jungle. The Big Fish Eats the Little Fish.

Best hope is that the lion becomes a vegetarian by eating the banana. And the little animals want to see the show. Actually it can be a party with fun games like ATTACHING THE BANANA TO THE LION while blinfolded, or PUT THE BEAST ON A DIET, in which you deny him meat products while throwing bananas at him, or THE LION BELONGS IN A LEASH, in which you restrict him with a collar that says: "I LOVE BANANA!":cheers:

Woj will be confused by the choice of so many different games and refuses to participate.

[donquijote]

Originally posted by woj1@cyberonic.
In communism majority generally has identical start, your social advances would depended mostly from you , or saying more precisely from the Nature which offered you a brain.

Stalin didn-t take bribes, he even didn-t exchanges with German his son who was caught by Germans and later executed.

Stalin was very good...:confused:

The Katyn Controversy
Stalin's Killing Field
Benjamin B. Fischer


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the earliest--and certainly the most infamous--mass shootings of prisoners of war during World War II did not occur in the heat of battle but was a cold-blooded act of political murder. The victims were Polish officers, soldiers, and civilians captured by the Red Army after it invaded eastern Poland in September 1939. Strictly speaking, even the Polish servicemen were not POWs. The USSR had not declared war, and the Polish commander in chief had ordered his troops not to engage Soviet forces. But there was little the Poles could do. On 28 September, the USSR and Nazi Germany, allied since August, partitioned and then dissolved the Polish state. They then began implementing parallel policies of suppressing all resistance and destroying the Polish elite in their respective areas. The NKVD and the Gestapo coordinated their actions on many issues, including prisoner exchanges. At Brest Litovsk, Soviet and German commanders held a joint victory parade before German forces withdrew westward behind a new demarcation line. 1

Official records, opened in 1990 when glasnost was still in vogue, show that Stalin had every intention of treating the Poles as political prisoners. Just two days after the invasion began on 17 September, the NKVD created a Directorate of Prisoners of War. 2 It took custody of Polish prisoners from the Army and began organizing a network of reception centers and transfer camps and arranging rail transport to the western USSR. Once there, the Poles were placed in "special" (concentration) camps, where, from October to February, they were subjected to lengthy interrogations and constant political agitation. The camps were at Kozelsk, Starobelsk, and Ostashkov, all three located on the grounds of former Orthodox monasteries converted into prisons. The NKVD dispatched one of its rising stars, Maj. Vassili Zarubin, to Kozelsk, where most of the officers were kept, to conduct interviews. Zarubin presented himself to the Poles as a charming, sympathetic, and cultured Soviet official, which led many prisoners into sharing confidences that would cost them their lives. 3

(...)

The Killing Field
During April-May 1940, the Polish prisoners were moved from their internment camps and taken to three execution sites. The place most identified with the Soviet atrocity is Katyn Forest, located 12 miles west of Smolensk, Russia. For years historians assumed that the grounds of an NKVD rest and recreation facility were both an execution and burial site for nearly a fifth of the unfortunate Poles who found themselves in Soviet captivity. Post-Cold War revelations, however, suggest that the victims were shot in the basement of the NKVD headquarters in Smolensk and at an abattoir in the same city, although some may have been executed at a site in the forest itself. In any event, the Katyn Forest is--and will probably long remain--the main symbol of the atrocity, even if it was not the actual killing field.

Memorandum on NKVD letterhead from L. Beria to "Comrade Stalin" proposing to execute captured Polish officers, soldiers, and other prisoners by shooting. Stalin's handwritten signature appears on top, followed by signatures of Politburo members K. Voroshilov, V. Molotov, and A. Mikoyan. Signatures in left margin are M. Kalinin and L. Kaganovich, both favoring execution.

The Katyn Forest massacre was a criminal act of historic proportions and enduring political implications. When Nazi occupation forces in April 1943 announced the discovery of several mass graves, propaganda minister Josef Goebbels hoped that international revulsion over the Soviet atrocity would drive a wedge into the Big Three coalition and buy Germany a breathing space, if not a victory, in its war against Russia. (A headline in the May 1943 Newsweek read: "Poles vs. Reds: Allied Unity Put to Test Over Officer Dead.") But Goebbels miscalculated. Despite overwhelming evidence of Soviet responsibility, Moscow blamed the Germans, and for the rest of the war Washington and London officially accepted the Soviet countercharge. When the Polish government-in-exile in London demanded an international inquiry, Stalin used this as a pretext to break relations. The Western allies objected but eventually acquiesced. Soon thereafter, the Soviet dictator assembled a group of Polish Communists that returned to Poland with the Red Army in 1944 and formed the nucleus of the postwar government. Stalin's experience with the Katyn affair may have convinced him that the West, grateful for the Red Army's contribution to the Allied military effort, would find it hard to confront him over Poland after the war.

more...

http://www.cia.gov/c...99-00/art6.html

[woj1@cyberonic.]

Originally posted by donquijote
B]Stalin was very good...:confused:



Memorandum on NKVD letterhead from L. Beria to "Comrade Stalin" proposing to execute captured Polish officers, soldiers, and other prisoners by shooting. Stalin's handwritten signature appears on top, followed by signatures of Politburo members K. Voroshilov, V. Molotov, and A. Mikoyan. Signatures in left margin are M. Kalinin and L. Kaganovich, both favoring execution.

B]

NKVD was creation of Polie; the Felix Dzierzynski.
Killing 45 thousand people was the big crime still it was lower than 3 millions people that US killed in Vietnam years of 73 war.

Beria was Jew so his name is not often mentioned by the West with Kathyn crime, so thank you for that.
Killing 45 thousand Polish people was big crime, but even I, the Polish has to agree that it was lower number than 3 millions Vietnamese that US killed in Vietnam years of 73 war.
Try harder, I still have story on US and England.

[Torquez]

NKVD was creation of Polie; the Felix Dzierzynski.
Killing 45 thousand people was the big crime still it was lower than 3 millions people that US killed in Vietnam years of 73 war.

Beria was Jew so his name is not often mentioned by the West with Kathyn crime, so thank you for that.
Killing 45 thousand Polish people was big crime, but even I, the Polish has to agree that it was lower number than 3 millions Vietnamese that US killed in Vietnam years of 73 war.

Dzierzynski never considered himself a Poles-he was a psychopath. Please spare people the"I am a Pole", as your obedience to russian interests and love for soviet propaganda makes you rather unrepresantive to Polish people.

[woj1@cyberonic.]

Originally posted by Torquez
B]Dzierzynski never considered himself a Poles-he was a psychopath. Please spare people the"I am a Pole", as your obedience to russian interests and love for soviet propaganda makes you rather unrepresantive to Polish people. B]

Slavs will throw away the foreign propaganda and they will return to its past prosperity.
The Slavs should stop listen the lectures of any sanctioned hypocrisy.
United Slavs will move forward to the bright future.

..Grab tightly onto your heritage, and build upon it.
Clean your life up and live for the only thing really worth living for, your people

[Bader]

Phew, what a side step!
'Kathyn Forest' and the sixty odd millions of peoples destroyed
within the Soviet Union is exonerated by the excess of power by the USA. The puppeteers are the same over all. How can one scene of war crimes against humanity exonerate their other
crimes against humanity?
Wall ST financed the creation of the Soviet Union and the Nazi
opposition ( Hegelian dialectic struggle to achieve a new
environment for global development and the state of Israel)
I didnt know Stalin was a slav, perhaps slavia's greatest hero?
Come on Woj, what do Poles owe the Stalin legacy which was
accepted by Churchill and Roosevelt ( three ring circus) ?
It is one thing to defend communism in its therectical purity in the hope that it is in fact possible to be non-tyrancal but to defend Stalin as a means to defend communism is a gross miscalculation.
Or are you arguing that 3 million vietnamiese are worth more than 20 times all the Eastern Eurapean- Russians that were turned to fertiliser?

[woj1@cyberonic.]

Originally posted by Bader
[B]
Come on Woj, what do Poles owe the Stalin legacy which was
accepted by Churchill and Roosevelt ( three ring circus) ?
It is one thing to defend communism in its therectical purity in the hope that it is in fact possible to be non-tyrancal but to defend Stalin as a means to defend communism is a gross miscalculation.
B]

Let us give back Pope what is Pope

[Torquez]

Poles owe the Stalin that they are not German slaves

Instead becoming Russian slaves.
And lets not forget that Stalin had nothing against Poles becoming German slaves as long as he would get some too-the German-Soviet Alliance 1939-1941.
Of course hundreds of thousands of Poles were murdered by Soviet Union also.

[Gari-Gari]

Agree with Torquez.

Last year an Austrian newspaper published the facts about the dictatorship of Stalin. He put HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of his OWN people to death. He let them kill or sent them to Siberia. If you look close at it he is responsible for a bigger (in numbers) genocide than Hitler.

How can anybody still glorify him?

He let his own mother kill.






"Attacking or fleeing are part of the struggle; being paralyzed by fear is not." The Pilgrimage
http://www.paulocoelho.com
http://www.warriorofthelight.com

[woj1@cyberonic.]

Originally posted by Torquez
B]Of course hundreds of thousands of Poles were murdered by Soviet Union also. /B]

It was not candle light supper it was barbarity.
Do I have to remind you what was going on during US attack on Yugoslavia?
Many Polish were there were as a members of Polish

[Gari-Gari]

Such testimonials should be told in schools and become more widely known. The atrocities of wars are little known to young people in the first world countries. This lack of information does not help to keep peace.





"Attacking or fleeing are part of the struggle; being paralyzed by fear is not." The Pilgrimage
http://www.paulocoelho.com
http://www.warriorofthelight.com

[woj1@cyberonic.]

...One summer day in the 1990s, along about the midpoint of the Clinton Interregnum, I had lunch with a writer well known for his conservative views and his wide, or at least widely displayed, learning.
``I've finally figured out what the problem is with liberals,'' he said, tipping a soupcon of vichyssoise to his lips. ``They're mentally ill.''
Given that our lunch occurred in the midst of what is easily the most successful Democratic presidency since Franklin Roosevelt's, I thought it was an odd remark -- until I understood that this was his extravagant way of saying something else: ``People who disagree with me must be nuts.''
Michael Savage, a foam-flecked radio talk-show host from San Francisco, has just released a new book called ``Liberalism is a Mental Disorder.''
Dogmatism and Intolerance
. Conservatives like to think they possess prudence, skepticism, a sense of limits and other wonderful qualities.
Not so. The researchers found that other, far more malignant traits compel a person to pull that GOP lever in the voting booth: ``fear and aggression,'' ``dogmatism and intolerance of ambiguity,'' ``personal need for structure,'' ``group-based dominance,'' ``need for cognitive closure,'' and ``mortality salience,'' otherwise known as ``fear of death.''
Lest their own dogmatism and intolerance become too transparent, the authors hasten to add that they don't mean ``conservative beliefs are necessarily false, irrational, or unprincipled.''
Crossing Lines
There are poor conservatives and rich liberals, conservative atheists and religious fundamentalists with left-of-center political views.
The Pew typology identifies one large chunk of Republicans who are ``skeptical about the effectiveness of the marketplace'' in promoting the general welfare. Another large chunk of Democrats is equally skeptical of government programs to help the poor.
Complications like these should confound Michael Savage as well as the Berkeley headshrinkers, but that's unlikely.
They prefer a tidier typology, comprising two kinds of American: the rational person, who agrees with them, and the deluded person, who doesn't.
http://quote.bloombe...id=aykaMi3feMk0

[Torquez]

Our WWII alliances bombed children hospitals and hotels in city of Belgrade and bombed and destroyed bridge under crossing civil train and attacked few million people city sewage hoping for biological disasterAre you forget when US killed children in Yugo auto company where they were human shield trying to protect place of work of their parents?
In the destroyed city and without electricity and water the doctors operated with candle light.. under US F-16 .
F-16 pilots send small mines in Disney Colors to attract small children to children parks.
And how we forget bombs made from DU which t radiation is still killing more people than Czrnobyl ever did, destroying land and water of whole Europe?.

Don't forget that they were doing this for Jewish Klingons who wanted Serbs to work in Saturnian plutonium mines !!!!

[Bader]

They are.

They are Jewish. I wouldnt like to see representatives of all those many peoples who suffered to line up and bombard innocent children with tales of one-up-manship for the greatest sympathy and make an impact for future political advantage.

The obvious dishonest emphasis on the Third Reich when the Soviet Union was at least ten times worse shows that children are not allowed to get an even break because the first world media has discounted the honest truth about the past, not Soviet propoganda!

Peace is based on justice and justice is based on the truth, not selective knowledge.


Labels like 'liberals', 'conservatives' etc are red-herrings, one may as well watch the clouds roll by as watch what the bulk of the main-stream media rolls by us. Try puppet a, puppet b, puppet c instead and please dont think that the puppets are the puppeteers.

[woj1@cyberonic.]

Originally posted by Bader
an impact for future political advantage.

The obvious dishonest emphasis on the Third Reich when the Soviet Union was at least ten times worse shows that children are not allowed to get an even break because the first world media has discounted the honest truth about the past, not Soviet propoganda!

Peace is based on justice and justice is based on the truth, not selective knowledge.


B]

Would be wise to destroy young lives by idea of dedication their lives to revenge? No .
It is much better to trust the history. Every bully drops to pieces and opens world to

[donquijote]

Originally posted by Gari-Gari
Such testimonials should be told in schools and become more widely known. The atrocities of wars are little known to young people in the first world countries. This lack of information does not help to keep peace.

Howdy Gari
It's not in the interest of the lion do so. Now in the 60th anniversary of WWII, our TV--lead by History Channel--overwhelmes us with the crimes of the Third Reich, of course, mostly against the Jews. They recently asked in one of those programs why the Germans didn't stop Hitler since they knew of his atrocities. In the end, in a logical pattern, the Germans received their due...

Now, if you extrapolate the facts and bring it to 2005, you see the same thing happening all over again. We are told the war in Iraq is to bring "democracy" to them, but so the German conquest was meant to bring "civilization" to barbaric people. So PROPAGANDA may give us a lead. Also, people is shut off from atrocities because they happen "far and away," I guess a fault in human nature.

Perhaps it is when they face the "final reckoning," as the German and Japanese did, that they learn the meaning of, "WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND." We seem not to be able to learn from History...

But WHY is this happening, is it a fault in human nature or simply the result of the "Big Lie of the people in power"? I smell LI-ON (read lie-on).

It reminds me of Jorge Ramos, a Mexican journalist, who said, "HUNT YOUR LION BEFORE HE EATS YOU"...

Bill Moyers' speech to the National Conference for Media Reform

'Mermin also quotes public television's Jim Lehrer acknowledging that unless an official says something is so, it isn't news. Why were journalists not discussing the occupation of Iraq? Because, says Lehrer, "the word occupation ... was never mentioned in the run-up to the war." Washington talked about the invasion as "a war of liberation," not a war of occupation, so as a consequence, "those of us in journalism never even looked at the issue of occupation."

"In other words," says Jonathan Mermin, "if the government isn't talking about it, we don't report it." He concludes: "[Lehrer's] somewhat jarring declaration, one of many recent admissions by journalists that their reporting failed to prepare the public for the calamitous occupation that has followed the 'liberation' of Iraq, reveals just how far the actual practice of American journalism has deviated from the First Amendment ideal of a press that is independent of the government."

(...)

I came to believe that objective journalism means describing the object being reported on, including the little fibs and fantasies as well as the Big Lie of the people in power.'

http://www.freepress.net/news/8120

[Gari-Gari]

Originally posted by Bader
They are.

They are Jewish. I wouldnt like to see representatives of all those many peoples who suffered to line up and bombard innocent children with tales of one-up-manship for the greatest sympathy and make an impact for future political advantage.

The obvious dishonest emphasis on the Third Reich when the Soviet Union was at least ten times worse shows that children are not allowed to get an even break because the first world media has discounted the honest truth about the past, not Soviet propoganda!

Peace is based on justice and justice is based on the truth, not selective knowledge...

Dear Bader,

your post really made me think.
For one I can only defend the schooling system in German-speaking countries (mainly Germany and Austria) which put an emphasis on teaching about the Third Reich and its atrocities - the atrocities committed against any person who did not want to participate in making H s dreams come true, homosexuals, gypsies, invalid persons, too old-to work persons and all people whose ethnicity was Jewish according some preset definitions.
In these countries I am speaking of there is a generationlong feeling of heavy collective guilt for the crimes committed. Especially heavy is that during WWII those who were murdered most in particular were Jews. At least 6 million Jews were braught to death, which is a genocide of tremendous dimensions if we take into consideration that Jews in Vienna, for example, used to be a large and characteristic group of intellectuals, talented musicians and respected business men. I don t know the numbers they were before the war in Austria but for sure nowadays they are only about not even 10.000 Jews living in this country (of a total of 9 Million inhabitants). Most of these 10.000 have mouved here only in recent years, mainly from Russia (Sefardic Jews), they are not survivors of WWII.

Given the fact that in Gemany the collective guilt feels heavy in particular, many young people tend to deny that Jews had ever been treated inhumanly. Young people who are today in their twenties, usually themselves social outsiders in some way, either unemployed and without a stable family background or those with little education and few friends, these young people occupy entire cities in Germany for denying publicly that the concentration camps ever existed, that they were a lie. This is a neo-nazism that is latently growing. I don?t think it has to do with WW or Jews so much but with these youngsters simply picking a politically hot topic for being sure that people will give them some attention... = therefore, however, there is a continued need to teach about the evidence of the Holocaust in particular.

I would understand that this emphasis is made here all the most because here are the places where such things happened.

Russia and Stalin is something we have heard about in school, too. Testimonials were not given so much about it as about the WWII-side of the story in Germany and Austria because perhaps "Russia is more far away". Also, when I went to school they had not yet found all the mass graves that reveal the truely gigantic dimensions of Stalin?s brutality.

With this post I just want to say that, speaking for certain countries such as G. and A., I do find it justified that a special attention is given to the Holocaust and the newly growing hatred of Jews in the present time. These are countries where Communism is not very likely to ever become a driving force and therefore not too much time is dedicated to talking about the shortcomings of Communism. Instead, time is being dedicated to find ways that would allow an integration of society with Jews and viceversa, because if this integration is not being cared for, terrible things could eventually happen again.

My statement of "such testimonials should be told in schools" also refers to schools in any country, of course. But I am afraid I can t share at this very moment your view of Jews being always more pointed out as victims of injustice than other ethnic groups. Perhaps yes, in a way, because let?s face it, gypsies have few representatives who deal with public entities which would be vital for conceiding gypsies platforms where their sufferings would be made known, recognized and apologized for.

Your view seems to be that Jews are actually directing it "their" way. - All I would like to say about this is that I have been for long having a perception that US Jews seem to behave somewhat different than European ones. US Jews seem to be pretty influencial in some ways that are never really openly discussed anywhere. Therefoer I can t comment on it, I have no experience or knowledge about it that I could rely on.

As for the countries I mentioned I can t see it and I think they are in their full right to receive endless acknowledgement.

On the other hand, I don t know what is being taught in US schools and how the Russian schooling system handles certain historic truths. I really wonder if the mayority of the Russian population ever came to know that so many of their own blood were murdered under Stalin. It is more likely that WE know about it.





"Anything a man does can bring him closer to the Suprme Wisdom, as long as he works with love in his heart."
http://www.paulocoelho.com
http://www.warriorofthelight.com

[Gari-Gari]

Bhutan is just the perfect choice for me!
It is a heavenly kingdom on earth that will be most probably be spared when GW starts to send bombs from the space down to planet earth:

http://www.nytimes.c...artner=homepage

My interpretation would rather be that it was GW who approached the Air Force in the first place for establishing a better equiped military defense system in the space. But who knows.


Quote:
"The focus of the process is not putting weapons in space," said Maj. Karen Finn, an Air Force spokeswoman, who said that the White House, not the Air Force, makes national policy. "The focus is having free access in space."

With little public debate, the Pentagon has already spent billions of dollars developing space weapons and preparing plans to deploy them.

"We haven't reached the point of strafing and bombing from space," Pete Teets, who stepped down last month as the acting secretary of the Air Force, told a space warfare symposium last year. "Nonetheless, we are thinking about those possibilities."


Best to all!



"Anything a man does can bring him closer to the Supreme Wisdom, as long as he works with love in his heart."
http://www.paulocoelho.com
http://www.warriorofthelight.com

[pacific]

Air Force Seeks Bush's Approval for Space Weapons Programs

CANADA IS NOT AGREE WITH AIR FORCE.