7545 replies to this topic

[donquijote]

Originally posted by Gari-Gari
Your question: "Where is the beef?"

Donquij,
Personally, I still believe that democratic governments function quite well here in Europe. - True, there are severe deceptions, too, look at Italy with Silvio B. - But no, I am not in favor of a radical change to cooperatives. I can t picture that system would work successfully right away. Plus: who would be in charge? Isn t there ALWAYS a commander??

The US is a totally different story.
I am here in this forum to learn more facts and opinions and all I can say so far is that I find a comparison with European standards very difficult. Perhaps, it is true that, according to you, the US would be better off if directed by co-operatives. But for that to decide I would need to be more familiar with the situation you are living there.

Hi Gari
The democratic countries of Europe may function better than in America but not exactly well, not when the lines of the unemployed includes millions of young people, who, as you say, then to sympathize with the Neo-nazis and form parties blaming the immigrants, who often are a result of the predatory West on the Thirld World.

The coops are most appropriate for those Thirld World countries which now provide the immigrants, and so it will be striking at the root of the problem.

So, yes, we must change, some more some less (like Austria), but the jungle is not sustainable.

[Gari-Gari]

Originally posted by donquijote
Hi Gari
The democratic countries of Europe may function better than in America but not exactly well, not when the lines of the unemployed includes millions of young people, who, as you say, then to sympathize with the Neo-nazis and form parties blaming the immigrants, who often are a result of the predatory West on the Thirld World.

The coops are most appropriate for those Thirld World countries which now provide the immigrants, and so it will be striking at the root of the problem.

Thank you, Donquij,
for your especifications. Now, I get your idea.
Selfgoverned coops for Third World countries might be a good first measure. The problem is that they are talented in always being ruled by mafias or corrupted single individuals. There would be a need to watch over the coops that they remain community-oriented and don t become a prey of power-hungry forces.

The rising unemployment in Europe is mainly due, looks like, to the creation of the EU and the many sudden exigences every country faces. Everything is in a new flow and economies still need to adapt to those changes. Competence between countries and potential employees has risen dramatically.
A few years back it all was some kind of Eldorado here. Now even the richer countries notice that there will be hardships on the population for years. Many state benefits have been abolished.

But if I compare this with the circumstances in the US, I find it s very lucky to be able to live here. I am sometimes really surprised how easy US citizens seem to deal with life when, after having a close look at it, they really have to deal with so many difficulties: no fix social security system, no pension system, very high costs for education, long distances (need for own transport such as cars), tight cities (with millions of inhabitants) with either expensive or dangerous districts and so on.
And then I meet Americans over here and they are just so easy about everything, totally "relaxed".
Nearly adorable as a mental achievement, I d say!



"Love is the key to all mysteries."
http://www.warriorofthelight.com
http://www.paulocoelho.com

[Gari-Gari]

Very interesting stuff about monkeys!

Have you heard of Jane Goodall?

http://www.pbs.org/w...nature/goodall/

http://www.webster.e...anegoodall.html

http://www.wcsu.ctst...imp/DRJANE.html

http://www.wic.org/bio/jgoodall.htm

She is one of my heroes. Perhaps you should invite her to lecture at your place about monkeys giving the banana to lions :shocknlau

Cheers.


"Love is the key to all mysteries."
http://www.warriorofthelight.com
http.//www.paulocoelho.com

[donquijote]

Originally posted by Gari-Gari
Very interesting stuff about monkeys!

Have you heard of Jane Goodall?

http://www.pbs.org/w...nature/goodall/

http://www.webster.e...anegoodall.html

http://www.wcsu.ctst...imp/DRJANE.html

http://www.wic.org/bio/jgoodall.htm

She is one of my heroes. Perhaps you should invite her to lecture at your place about monkeys giving the banana to lions :shocknlau

Hi Gari
I'm glad you liked it. I found it funny.

Yes, I like her, since I'm motivated by saving the environment and its species and habitats, which are disappearing fast as the first link you provide says, but I doubt she can face the lions I'm talking about. Not even Crocodile Hunter can! And I sent it to him...

Well, I'm speaking metaphorically, and only we all could stop the lion if we decided. This is how we can hunt the beast (of course, first give him the banana)...

I'm paraphrasing here something I came across: "In a society where truth is so camouflaged and avoided," the li-on hunter (read lie hunter) is the most honest profession. If "Satyagraha" (Gandhian Nonviolence) is "the way of the truth," then the li-on is "the way of the lie and violence." (http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Satyagraha)

I started writing back in 1992 with these concerns in mind...

http://webspawner.co...ers/donquijote6

[donquijote]

Howdy
I came across this interesting excerpt that presents a solution not only to the poor countries (poverty), but to the rich countries(unemployment). Best of all, we could be working less and having more daiquiris...

"Unemployment and poverty could easily be eliminated. (There are none in the Israeli Kibbutz settlements). We would have neighbourhood work coordination committees who would make sure that all who wanted work had a share of the work that needed doing. Far less work would need to be done than at present. (In consumer society we probably work three times too hard!)

Most of the things we need would be produced within a few kilometres of where we lived but items such as fridges and stoves would come from regional factories. Very few items, including steel, would be moved long distances, and very little (perhaps items such as high-tech medical equipment) would be transported from overseas.

Above all in the new economy there would be no economic growth. In fact we would always be looking for ways of reducing the amount of work, production and resource use. Obviously this does not mean that there cannot be improvement and innovation.

When we eliminate all that unnecessary production, and shift much of the remainder to backyards and local small business and cooperatives and into the non-cash sector of the economy, most of us will need to go to work for money in an office or a mass production factory only 1 or 2 days a week. In other words it will become possible to live well on a very low cash income. We could spend the other 5 or 6 days working/playing around the neighbourhood doing many varied and interesting and useful things everyday."

http://futurepositiv....net/2003/01/21

[donquijote]

David <timelets@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
Hi

Deightfully utopian, but why then don

[donquijote]

Komin wrote:
> green revolution , Banana revolution,
> Cucumber revolution, all these are for small countries ./
>
> for bigger countires only the Octane revolution will work .
>
> Money talks .
>
> the US knows this .
>
> That is why the US always gives bribes .

You mean something like this?

HOW POLITICS WORKS

(This little, tiny story is part of a series, in which I explain to my little daughter how things work.)

Politics works like this: Big People of Big Country buy Big People of Little Country, who, by the way, will be elected in "democratic elections" thanks to big bucks; Big People of Big Country give big loans to Little Country (of course, to buy "made in Big Country"); Big People of Little Country pocket a big chunk and invest it in the Big Country, without ever investing in real development (education, health, the environment, etc); Little People of Little Country work for ever to pay back what they never got; Big People of Little Country thank Big People of Big Country in the name of Little Country, and promise to repay the big debt; and Little People of Little Country get big promises, just like Little People of Big Country. And they lived happily ever after...

***

How 'bout the French, Octane Revolution or Le Banane Revolution? I think they are kind of confused, and don't know where they belong. Perhaps they could lead Le Banane Revolution...

They had a great humanist, Rene Dumont, agronomist to boot, proposing exactly the same thing (by a different name, of course). Che Guevara dismissed his suggestions, but time told him wrong. Cuba lives and always had lived under scarcity. Somehow though Che ignored the kibbutz, probably for political reasons, ie. centralization meant control...

'Here Che's early criticism of the Soviet Union became apparent. Taibo's biography tells of a meeting Guevara had with French economist Rene Dumont. Dumont suggested, as Taibo puts it , that "nationalization and state takeovers [do] not necessarily add up to socialism" (Taibo, 306) that peasants did not feel like they owned the business that they operated, and this would lead to absenteeism and theft from the co-operatives. Che's opposition to the co-operatives was voiced here, saying it would set up a system like America's in socialist nations, where workers work for material gain, rather for the benefit of society. Che's notion of the "new man" spoken of before was developing here. People were, according to Che's economic thought, to work for the benefit of society, and from that receive their benefit. The co-operative then involved a heightened sense of individual ownership rather than work for the good of all, and it promoted a continued atomization of the workers (peasants included) for individual gains. This is why there is theft, because there is individual greed and motivation. This is why there is absenteeism, because workers don't see the benefit for all of society in their work, or they discount their work's importance. This is why there is not increased production, because the workers are waiting for material incentives which will not come, which cannot come. The Soviet system tries to incorporate worker ownership into its model, where what is needed is instead worker responsibility. This notion of the "new" man had permeated Che's economic thinking by mid 1960.'

http://www.marxists....on-ministry.htm

[donquijote]

>Thomas Greco -- CIRC2 <circ2@mindspring.com> wrote:
Your little story of How Politics Works is superbly concise and pretty accurate. Your ending line, however, does not fit. There is no happy ending, just continuing struggle. More aptly, "The big people lived sumptuously but in constant fear of losing what they have; the little people lived in misery and deprivation so long as they were ignorant of how the game works and unable to conceive a better one."

Tom<


Thank you for your comments, Tom. I'm sure most people read sarcasm into it, which is the language of satire.

The happy ending only happens in children stories (perhaps they are meant to make money in this commercial age), until they learn of the jungle waiting for them.

Children of the World, it's a jungle out there!!!

[donquijote]

NOTE: I'm quoting the whole speech on "higher awareness" to just use a name. I propose THE WHIP AND THE TREAT with the beast. See at bottom...

Mohsin Jaffer <mohsin@services4u.com.au> wrote:
My apologies but I could not take these comments as the final conclusion but only the end of the old ways - opening only to a new way/level of perception. Current/old way is clearly described in short below, thanks to Thomas's excellent perception skills. If we are involved in the game we will remain gamblers, if we perceive from outside the game we can create something beyond playing ie it will be for true living in peace and harmony. Now for some indication of the new way to look at people.

Let me call this Le Banane Evolution !

A> Human being is created higher than angels ie a perceptive conscious being as such unless we perceive at this level the real truth about anything cannot be discovered (not mental or physical perception) - it provides a bird's eye view from each one human being having the potential to see from one's inner self as micro creator's point of view. In this way all us a the same - divine conscious beings given different natures to conceive and achive

B> The human nature part of us is like being provided tools to conceive from our inner perception. The more we share inner perception and perceive the clear picture of our own and share with others together, the mental conception will be how to achieve the perception. The differences in nature promote creativity in self expression.
- Perception at this level is at a nature based human being - looking at other nature based human beings that share common perception at mental/physical levels - small world and fragmented

C> Achievement ie start to take steps to work towards a clearly perceived and conceived picture, is easy once each one can perceive and conceive... and each does their bit creatively in different ways independently for the purpose to relate interdependently - only then we can be part of something greater than individual our selves.
- Conception for nature level as a nature based human is materialising the perception (premature and experimental and for the purpose of survival and if this becomes successful, changes to ruling in the jungle.

....... In nature consciousness there is and E> which means achieve... after materialising the premature concept, winning to keep enhancing and changing it to strengthening it is achievement (short lasting as nature outgrows... so we have to keep running after more and more advancement to catch up before problems arise or when problems are created to keep solving).

The current/old way we are all at nature conscious level hence worse than animals (because we have this little piece of meat called the brain causing protecting iteself at the excuse of being a protector of our body and the others... ) when this is the case we live in a jungle reality and thus survival of the fittest and highest mental capacity is the key weapon used to manipulate perception and realities are shown as per the will of the fittest few. In the new way - the simpler the person (like a child) one can see true sense and question to understand the truth behind any reality - asking the right question to one self provides the answer from the highest conciousness to our inner being - and we become free from the mental/emotional chains tying us up into true feelings and inspiration from the very core of our hearts and soul and connect with each other. For this each one needs to question the real purpose for one's existence and life on this planet for a consciousness was not born and thus does not die, the body was born and thus dies, giving the consiousness the opportunity to create what is sometimes called heaven on earth - I would call it a personal journey back to being our true selves is the real and only step if for each to have self respect for oneself for what one is, has been always but not known, and get to know - so that we can enjoin each other to truth with real self respect (not in respect of mind of body or wealth) and dignity of each one being potential creators in our right with each one given a dignified position in being the centre of our own universe - and interacting in the same reality as the planets and stars do in the universe.

With my deepest feelings of true love I pray we are at a cross road point and giving up point to the mental battles each one carries within so we can give up - even for a split second to give ourselves the opportunity to hear our true self speak to us. To remember who you are is very simple, it is who have always been - as a child, growing up and even now... you know it but cannot define it (whatever can be defined is not you) - to be or not to be is the real first question, all subsequent questions for oneself relate to the answer we give to ourselves to this core question - relate to our selves from who we are (non definable) or relate to ourselves from what we have made ourselves believe who we are (definable ie nature based, labelled and boxed in the mental world). Time to set ourselves free by knowing this simple truth...
Mohsin

***

Howdy
Very enlightening indeed, almost sounds like the Little Prince. I wished it became true but it's unlikely that the evil in man (power hunger, greed, the lie) can change just by wishing good or by having the right models, namely Jesus, Buddha or Gandhi. We haven't changed that much in the last 2000 years, even though we now have Christianism, Buddhism or whatever...

The way I see it: I see a beast (the lion, the dinosaur) that's not totally bad, but who must be tamed. He prevents CHANGE at all cost. You face him with the word "evolve" (same word you use) and he roars at you threateningly. He's stuck in the past and doesn't want to hear anything new, not justice, not humanism, not new energetic technologies, just the same old HUNGRY BEAST.

What do we do? The same thing we do with any beast that needs to be tamed: THE WHIP AND THE TREAT. The whip is boycott, and the treat, well, the treat is banana, which I understand he can digest.

(You may also think of the treat as the fact that he's being saved from self-destruction)

So that's the way it was in the good old-fashioned days of the Jurassic...

EVOLVE OR ELSE!

Once upon a time lived a race of dinosaurs whose violence and appetite alarmed everybody... One day a Little Ant, tired of feeling stepped upon, and worried about her cooperative enterprise, came up to the Americanus Raptor--the biggest dinosaur of them all--and asked: "Why you eat and eat everything in your path? Why don't you slim down? Why can't we little animals at least have our own way?" Then the dinosaur, blowing the Little Ant away, shouted: "Bigger is better, so get lost!"

The Little Ant, then, gathered the whole cooperative and said: "Comrades, our world is being threatened by the dinosaurs, so..." And at that precise moment the Earth was hit by a big ball of fire, destroying all but the small animals...

Moral: "It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change." -Charles Darwin

[donquijote]

Mohsin Jaffer <mohsin@services4u.com.au> wrote:
Howdy Don,

This is still looking at it from Human Being as being a species - nature has species, human being is a consciousness experiencing being within a body that contains all elements within it that exist in the universe - a consciousness has the knowledge of the elements), thus it becomes overwhelming for the consciousness to remain detatched from the actual nature to be able to stand back and observe.

It's "nature" that's evolving faster than us retaining our consciousness in regards to the evolution - that is why we "think" or "feel" we are rather than "know" we are. The only way a consciousness expands its perception or knowledge (it does not evolve it was, is and will always be the same) is by perceiving what is given to it starting with one's own mind (thoughts/emotions) and body (5 senses) and then proceed onwards and to express it's experiences (unique) to other conscious beings and in doing so create a relationship - at present our nature is too beaten up, suppressed, protective etc to wake up to this fact - hence Jesus's saying "forgive them for they know not what they do" and this time can we forgive ourselves for we ourselves do not know what we do - only by knowing our true self can we forgive our not self (ie our nature) and in doing so we will be forgiving of the lions - after all we all have more than once been overwhelmed (where again I quote Jesus - let he who has not sinned cast the first stone !) otherwise turn the other cheek - turn away from that which is not - no whip no strike - a strike is only a defensive move so protect from an attack faced after the first slap on the cheek, against a second one - still it is not to win, but to win over the enemy which is lost in darkness... this time can we win over our own nature (body and mind) - the enemy is within is the only battle we can ever be responsible at this time, the only one I can see... in doing so we will be protected and supported form the enemy outside by the universe itself !

We are experts at knowing who/what we are not and spend a lot of time on evolving our nature - which makes it rebel against our own true self - hence the hunger. The spirit within each of is true love and knows, however we fall for feelings and thoughts... (we've desperately tried to turn ourselves like computers for stability sake, for the sake of no war, no conflict - asking a computer to understand the maker in computer terms is not ever possible - unless the maker turns to become a computer which is also not possible. Human being is a likeness of a maker, within a complex computer, and the human is trying to survive because the who we are is confused.... we're trying to know ourselves from our nature and other nature rather than from the absolute self's perspective (or selves relativing to the absolute self ie prophets, messagers, saints). This time it's only wishing to know oneself from the perspective of the absolute (or one's own choice of invisible higher self to relate to, and there are many that relate to the one same Absolute)... then look out for a voice within, a sign and ask yourself what message is coming through...

The point is we're managing the problem/s at the wrong level ie nature taming level, thus manipulating evolution itself causing chaos - did you hear the one about "when a butterfly flutters its wings it can cause a thyphoon on the other side of the world" well if one human being as a consciousness flutters it's perception, it should cause a typhoon to cease on the other side of the world...

May each of our consciousnesses flutter even one simple flutter - it can change the face of chaos to harmony a step at a time....

Cheers
Mohsin

***

Hi Mohsin
OK, I think I get the gist of what you are saying (the lion is within), but we must agree there's evil in the world, otherwise there would be no concept of the Devil. When we are warned of Satan as "a roaring lion" we are told of the beast, and we are told "by their deeds ye shall know them" we are told of camouflage. So if we treat this beast as a wild but potentially tamable beast that we must identify as such, we wouldn't be far from the truth, particulary when the lion is presented as peaceful vegetarian in paradise.

The "lion within" in the meantime can be conquered by "higher awareness" or whatever path of enlightenment you choose, but it'll also be contained by those outside who won't be tolerant of the beast. So "NO LION NO PROBLEM" is a wise strategy both to the lion outside and inside. If he's good, there goes the banana; if he's roaring, there goes the whip. Though giving him the banana for bad behavior (turning the other cheek), may not be that a misguided effort if we can show clearly WE ARE NOT A LION. Nonviolence then would triumph over violence, and good over evil, and happily ever after...

[donquijote]

Mohsin Jaffer <mohsin@services4u.com.au> wrote:
Howdy Don,

Someone kindly sent me a simple version which relates to - how to gain knowledge from within Self - the mind is information from moving targets (nature), knowledge is from a fixed target (spirit). If who we are is a moving source, we look for moving targets - and this seems constant - however if we stop becoming moving targets and be still even for a short time and focus ardently to be in contact with the stillness within in a cry for understanding... boy our heart will guide us how to play our part that will work (heart is commonly mistaken as emotion which is in the brain and not the heart).

Proverbs 2 v1
My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you,
turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding,
and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, and
if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden
treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the
knowledge of God. For the Lord gives wisdom and from his mouth come
knowledge and understanding.

Cheers
Mohsin

***

Hi Mohsin
Thank you for all the insight. Some talk about praying, and the lion talks about preying. We have got a lion. There's no doubt in my mind about that. He wants to keep preying on Nature and Living Creatures alike. He wants war, and he wants money. Perhaps money is the main culprit. If we lived in a green kibbutz, with no politician or boss to worry about, and no rent or bills to worry about, then we could spend time in higher awareness. But for the time being I see the need to fight the beast.

The situation is about survival. If we spend more time trying to get enlightened we may be swallowed by the lion. And the little animals of the jungle love this call to resistance in a plain, funny language. I was watching a documentary of the lion, in which when the gazelle is alert of the lion and he knows it, he doesn't dare attack. It's called altruism. To call it a jungle is not a call to war, it's a call to altruism. And I'd say, we have to hurry and sound the alarm!!!

[donquijote]

Mohsin Jaffer <mohsin@services4u.com.au> wrote:
Howdy Don,

I agree... fighting the beast like a gazelle... alert and aware - that is enlightenment... I like this fighting style because if the gazelle tries to fight the lion as a lion it will loose since a lion is better and more experiences at being a lion than the gazelle... this is what I meant to say when I focused on self, alertness comes from self ... it is what the enlightened call meditation also... but it is mis interpreted because the alertness (like a cat has) is not seen until the attack is close by however the cat is always altert even when asleep... this survival instinct is necessary..... thanks for your perspective - it enlightened and expanded my perspective immensely ... until we share expressions again.... take care
Cheers
Mohsin

***

Hi Mohsin
Then we agree that there's a beast outside, NOT to be fought with the beast within ourselves. The lion will smell resistance and will refrain from eating them.

This is a short story about a predator and some happy monkeys. Why the panther can't stand happiness? I think to keep them together is a mistake since predators don't like happiness, and they'll always spoil the life of the monkeys, well, unless the lion eats the banana, symbolizing love and laughter...


"When I was still very young, and struggling to understand the world I lived in, my father read Kipling's Jungle Stories to me. I can hear him now, reading to me about the noble Bagheera, the Black Panther who was called The Cat Who Walked Alone. Kipling also told about the Bandar-log monkeys. Bagheera was a solitary meat-eating warrior, but the Bandar-log ran together, chattering foolishly, eating anything. The panther Bagheera condemned the monkeys:

They have no law. ... They have no speech of their own, but use stolen words ... They are without leaders. ... the falling of a nut turns their mind to laughter ..."

more...
http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi778.htm

[Bader]

Howdy DonQ,

the disposition of the future-positive site is similar to Social Credit,
but the difference with S.C. is that it recognises that there has to be an underlying philosophy that champions the individuals sovereignty as a 'constitutional' base of society, because all policy is derived from a philosophy. The common fault that people make is not recognising this and merely attempt to devise ways of a better way of doing things. A complexity of adhoc improvements may not necessarily work together and good ideas have to have practical means to gain support.
The world isnt one of just bad ideas prevailing over good ideas, happenstance, and the prevailing of lions that reduce life to a jungle. The world is 'ruled' by policy of a philosophy that believes in the Jungle being ruled by an elite.
The management class which include the better educated, the bigger business class etc etc will not agree to new ideas, for example that reduce their rewards for serving the Lion. They may however agree to a philosophy that is more socially just and thus respect the polices that will fulfill that environment, because they will see that they wont lose.

[donquijote]

Mohsin Jaffer <mohsin@services4u.com.au> wrote:
Hi Don (no worries about my name... )

Question : How can One Absolute Creator create conflict and good/bad, lack of abundance and competition ?

Comment: Somewhere we must have forgotten the known the formula of success and due to this The Absolute is guiding us to survive and prepare until we get back to it, hence enjoin patience amongst ourselves and enjoin peace making doing good actions humbly (meek) and stand up to the lion if he comes your way but do not fight (non violence approach letting the falsehood/aggression appear clearer than sunlight before all) - the formula of success is always within each soul but first the ones who think they know, and run on their our own formula these must run their course so they have no way to deny the truth when it appears otherwise any one could say "we could have done it if we knew he he he", some will give up and turn to the Absolute humbly, others when time's up it's up (time not being our decision but the Absolute's). Also our faith is tested meanwhile - to strengthen it in order to inherit the kingdom of heaven (I pray all creation great small inherits this divine right - pity
to see any of God's priceless creation destroyed due to blindness - and may God forgive those that know not meanwhile I'm keeping watch they do not drive over me and keep working with head ducked down ha ha ha - I have faced many agresssive ones to provoke me but standing up made them run away somehow - even if I was really scared myself, it's now easier to stand up).

Hope it's short enough...
Cheers
Mohsin

***

Howdy Mohsin

Maybe the creator was testing our survival instincts, or our cleverness in beating the lion. An anti-lion strategy includes NONVIOLENCE (violence feeds the lion) and IN UNION THERE'S STRENGHT (whether politically or economically).

But I think it's the economics that most concerns this group. The COOP is the best line of defense without conflict with the lion (unless the lion denies the coop to the little animals). Some are of the kibbutz type, some are the Mondragon, capitalist style. Credit Unions dedicate a share going toward them. And the coops are available to all those who want it, no more no less.

The lion nowadays controls the little animals by economic means. He tells them, "You are free to vote for the fox or me." But then controls the only waterhole available so the little animals must come to him to drink the precious liquid. Think of the consequences...

PS: See in this article how the existence of one lion justifies the others, so we have in effect an arms race, with the known result of no resources going to the little animals...

Rumsfeld Decries China's Military Buildup

and then China replies...
"Since the U.S. is spending a lot more money than China is doing on defense, the U.S. should understand that every country has its own security concerns and every country is entitled to spend money necessary for its own defense," Cui said.

http://news.yahoo.co...s/rumsfeld_asia

[vigorous]

Check the speech made April 26 to the
US Congress on this thread:

http://engforum.prav...40&pagenumber=2

It's at the second last post now, followed
by an (undated) letter to the bureaucrat
stopping the Russians from making a
big BIG slash in the USA, likely for many international cameras and newsmen.

The impression would be enoromous.

I can't measure the strength of the
speech, sorry. As you know, the US
is burning fiercly now.

it is unlikely, however, that a
catastrophe would produce an international outcry of the nature
of that following Putin's decision
on The Kursk should the waterbomber
not be invited in this season.

As you are aware, Shoigu's planes
were invited in before, but the
Buttheads at the US Forest Service
countermanded that order, and the
US went on to set a record in
wildfire destruction.

http://www.aeronauti...s-alamos-01.htm

The Americans currently have two (2)
BIG DOGS in the hunt; a 747 and a
DC-10. Our analysis shows that these
planes probably have limitations so
severe, their effectiveness would be
highly questionable.

Page me if you have any questions,
as I'm not a frequent visitor to your
thread.

Cheers;
vigorous

[lolomarsei]

stop drinking, first

[Bader]

There is clearly a pattern of allowing all defence/emergency systems in the US to fail. Suggesting that its a pretext, conditioning, for what is to follow. Basically the 'gheto' (circled wagon) psychology
well tested and proven by others who have a firm grim on power in th US today.
There is nothing new under the sun.

[woj1@cyberonic.]

It is from1939 year pattern , only the ex victims join the present killers, but final effect will be the same.

[Bader]

The ongoing cost of the defence of North America from the threat of civilians in Iraq is bound to make them spend more than China.

Howdy DonQ and Woj.

[woj1@cyberonic.]

"Wars almost never end the way starters had in mind-
Malcolm Forbes.