7545 replies to this topic

[donquijote]

<The people of New York state should hang their heads in collective shame for ever having elected Hillary Clinton to the office of United States senator.

She is far more dangerous to democracy then any personal gun ever was. I FOR ONE AM AGAINST THE CALIFORNIA RECALL FOR A MYRIAD OF REASONS TO COMPLEX TO EXPLAIN HERE, HOWEVER,
A RECALL of hILLARIOUS clinton, WOULD HAVE ME MAKING A PERSONAL CONTRIBUTION FOR HER OUSTER.........>

To me she's the wife of a fox. We can safely assume she belongs to the same species...

[donquijote]

<You know how corporates run prisons and use them for labor as
the U.S.-Nazi German corps used slave labor, well corps can in due course offer the State a way out for social cost burdons by
building kibbutzs for the "laid off and down and out on the dole
type people to provide food and shlter in exchange for cheap labor. Same world same lion, there was no Numerburg for Lion or his financial and corporate drones.>

Something to vigilant about, but I haven't seen such a thing happening in Israel. Perhaps they practice the doctrine of, "Do what I tell you (communism or capitalism) not what I do.";)

[Bader]

Howdy GIJ:
I expected there would be much we will agree on, we will get more patient with each other as we understand each other more
and one never knows who one is going to learn something from
next as well.

Did you ever write soemthing as good?- DonQ (hey what's this
mirror mirror on the wall?) Yeah and better. It's good to go back over things you write from time to time, makes you feel good
sometimes, see how you have progressed and sometimes best of all you remind yourself of something significant you have forgotten- like finding something you had lost.
Regards that certain type of kibbutz you said doesn't exist-
pssst (its the road map don't tell the Palestinians, but it will be
called their state) That's a secret so only tell one person at a time.

"if the United States continues on its path.." (who is loosing their time and a half?) You read my quote from Rubin on the other thread- that says the US real economy is in the way, the global equity market is more important than the U.S. now.
One could say "if the dollar continues..." or the money system.
The American people were sold out in breach of the constitution
on xmas eve in 1913, when the authority of Congress regards the US money supply was privatised. We all know what privatisation meant in Russia- same but more strategic and critical. The Russians saw the Wall st bolshivist Revolution coming/happening so to speak, this financial revolution on the US was silent and stealthy making it easy for the media to pretend it didn't exist/
Prof. John K Galbraith-
"The study of money, above all other fields in economics, is one in which complexity is used (by economists) to disguise truth or evade truth, not to reveal it." Smell the Lion?

[GIJOE]

Yes, you have made a strong point re the U.S.'s weak points.
Still I truly believe we are greatest nation on the earth, with tremendous potential for the good of all man.
Nobody want's to go into the game thinking they can't win.
This is the sure path to destruction and failure.
The way to succeed at anything, is first think you can.
You are a naysayer and a negative thinking person, when it comes to the good ole U.S.A.

Thats O K with me if it suits ye.
I for one prefer to see the glass as half full, rather then half empty. This does not make either of us bad people.

Honestly G I Joe

[Bader]

Howdy GIJoe,
Down-under your response is called shooting the messenger
(because of the message) but no doubt it is used all over the world.
Would you like to tell us how to take Rubin's message in a positive way?
The original point made was that the US should continue, as a lesson to the world of what is bad/how not to do it.
I differentiated to point out it is the bankers not the US people,
a huge difference, but you in effect from your response to me sticking up for the US people, are saying the US people are culpable, ok so be it, what goes around comes around, your peoples turn is already on the way.
Lets not get personal GI, the subtlty of what is said is very easily overlooked. I infact was sticking up for the U.S. people (people).
THEY ARE THE GREATEST PEOPLE IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD
but they have a money on their back and when they can't face reality it then becomes an Emporer who wore no clothes situation.
I don't have to care GI but I do.

[GIJOE]

You have touched on the U.S.'s gravest danger.
When your king of the hill. there's only one way left to go.
It only depends on when your going. Maybe in a few hundred years, this might be true of the U.S.A. good evening til then.





G I Joe

[Bader]

Here is the real world the media cannot see and it relates to the
situation in California where the Govnr has been recalled by
democratic accountability:
Sourse: redmoonrising.com/chamish/Aug03.htm

THE TERMINATOR

***Did anyone notice that Arnold Schwarzenegger and his new political
partner, Warren Buffet took a trip together to a Rothschild estate in
England this week? (International Herald Tribune, Aug. 18). There is more
to the Terminator's new political career than meets the eye. Follow closely
the connections back to Edgar the Bronfman:***

At the bottom of my latest post, you will find some information regarding
Warren Buffet and Arnold Schwarzenegger which I feel is important to get
out to Jewish communities.
As you probably know already, Buffet is the Chairman of Berkshire Hathaway,
the Insurance Monolith. He's openly backing Arnold in order to crush
California and Washington's HVIRA Laws, which would require disclosure of
unpaid policies belonging to Holocaust victims.
General Re will probably save billions through this move, with Jews once
again becoming the victim.

(SACRAMENTO) - Attorney General Bill Lockyer took another major step in
defending the constitutionality of California laws that allow World War
II-era slave laborers and victims of the Holocaust to seek compensation
from private companies that were enriched by their forced services and
unpaid insurance claims.

"The California laws under attack seek basic justice for victims of the
Holocaust who have insurance claims pending and for World War II-era slave
laborers who were deprived of wages as slave labor victims," Lockyer said.
"The California laws address state issues while avoiding foreign relations
and foreign policy. The laws are narrowly tailored remedies for abuses by
businesses that unconscionably enriched themselves by using slave labor or
by failing to pay insurance claims."
www.insurance.wa.gov/news/dynamic/newsreleasedetail.asp?rcdNum=354
OLYMPIA, Wash. - The U.S. Supreme Court struck down California's Holocaust
Victims Insurance Relief Act (HVIRA) today effectively leaving in question
Washington state's own similar law passed unanimously in 1999.
"The Court's decision severely impedes states' ability to protect their
citizens," said Kreidler. "With an average of 10 Holocaust survivors dying
every week, surely we owe them a chance at pursuing restitution - despite
what the federal government thinks.

***My correspondent puts most of the puzzle together but misses one
piece:'"Ten Holocaust
survivors dying every week. Holocaust victims have been a thorn in the side
of insurance
companies for decades. They want what's owed to them, and the Insurance
companies refuse to pay. They've been in court forever. By putting their
muscle behind Arnold, Buffet and company
are trying to crush the unpaid insurance claimants and former slaves once
and for all.
Note that the AIA is one of the principals in the lawsuit. The sadists are
hoping they can
stall in court until all the people they victimized are dead.
I guarantee that if Arnold wins, Holocaust victims lose, and California
support for the rights of Holocaust victims who were screwed by insurance
companies will be a dead issue. Gee,
this really helps the Bush family too doesn't it?
After all, Prescott Bush used Jewish slaves at Consolidated Silesian Steel
in Poland,
who were slave labor contracted by CSS from the Nazi conglomerate IG
Farben. Farben ran Auschwitz for Hitler, which is where the Bush family's
slaves came from.
So now you have some idea who Arnold is working for, and what some of these
people want. Protection from liability for either their participation in or
profiteering from the Holocaust.
Still think it's irrelevant that Arnold comes from a Nazi family?"

*** Certainly, it is worth more than mere noting that Bush's grandfather
and Schwarzenegger's father were enthusiastic supporters of Naziism. But
look even more closely at how the circle closes. Edgar Bronfman's letter
writing partner is Lawrence Eagleburger, the government's international
director for Holocaust insurance claims. The Terminator's political
partner is obsessed with having these claims
wiped out in California.
Apparently opposing Schwarzenegger and Buffet's nefarious goal of
depriving Holocaust victims of compensation would be Bronfman. The
Terminator, if he has his way, will have to go through Bronfman's
co-signator on the Bush letter, Lawrence Eagleburger.
But Edgar couldn't care less about dead Jews if they don't support
his politics or live where he thinks they should. And the money he
supposedly helped release from Swiss banks to Holocaust victims has not
reached their hands. Just the way the Terminator wants things to be.

[MarquisDeSade]

"Howdy Marquis,
Well goodluck the world needs character and integrity and if you are determined there is a good chance you will make it. From
a common perspective of politics Down-under many a bright eyed and bushy tailed person has enterred the hallowed halls of power
to soon be transformed into a clone. But there are exceptions
and they do achieve some good things and restrain some bad things."


Thanks bader. you seem pessimistic about such qualities or that it might ever happen. well, i guess you have not taken a close look at curitiba. please do. it HAD HAPPENED and still is happening. dont be a skeptic. judge by what it had achieve. otherwise you are not giving it due credit.

[donquijote]

< Thats O K with me if it suits ye.
I for one prefer to see the glass as half full, rather then half empty. This does not make either of us bad people.>

Howdy GI
If you know the glass is half full you must realize there's a half empty... The problem is they are hiding that fact, selling themselves to the world as absolutely full.

If you don't get it don't worry...

[GIJOE]

There you go again focusing on the negative....

[donquijote]

<You have touched on the U.S.'s gravest danger.
When your king of the hill. there's only one way left to go.
It only depends on when your going. Maybe in a few hundred years, this might be true of the U.S.A. good evening til then.>

Almost an idyllic evening...

"Don't worry be happy," said the soccer mom trying to calm the nervous little girl, "it's only war and environmental damage around us."

Then she got on the gas-guzzling SUV and took the crying girl for a picnic to the lifeless polluted lake nearby. "Hey let's turn on the radio," the mom said, to the sobbing girl. And the news came on: "Another American soldier killed in Iraq," and then, "Orange Alert for America." "Don't you worry, little one," reassured the soccer mom, who quicky changed the station, and pulled out the wrapped junk food she had bought with so much love at McDonald's, and both listened to some soft music--almost relaxing, if it weren't for the strident commercials--in that quiet evening...

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

[donquijote]

"Howdy Marquis,
Well goodluck the world needs character and integrity and if you are determined there is a good chance you will make it. From
a common perspective of politics Down-under many a bright eyed and bushy tailed person has enterred the hallowed halls of power
to soon be transformed into a clone. But there are exceptions
and they do achieve some good things and restrain some bad things."

<Thanks bader. you seem pessimistic about such qualities or that it might ever happen. well, i guess you have not taken a close look at curitiba. please do. it HAD HAPPENED and still is happening. dont be a skeptic. judge by what it had achieve. otherwise you are not giving it due credit. >

Hey Marquis
It's not that we doubt you. We know you can do it. And we can already picture you, whip in hand, fighting the hungry roaring lion. Another easier, but less spectacular outcome though, is that you move to Curitiba. And last but not least is the possibility that we *make it hapen everywhere* and tame the lion once and for all...

[GIJOE]

During the earlist times of this country, most people had a lifespan that was quite short compared to today's.
There were people that lived much longer then others at that time. People like Ben Franklin for instance, a man who even in those times had the good sense to understand nutrition.
Ignorance of the masses is a chronic ailment that we are constantly trying to rid the country of.

[donquijote]

<During the earlist times of this country, most people had a lifespan that was quite short compared to today's.
There were people that lived much longer then others at that time. People like Ben Franklin for instance, a man who even in those times had the good sense to understand nutrition.
Ignorance of the masses is a chronic ailment that we are constantly trying to rid the country of. >

We need an "Apple Pie Revolution";)... a back to basics movement. America certainly has the best resources to do it...

[donquijote]

<aware that historically such things do not work; and tend to lead to mass starvation?
USSR, China, etc. they tell the same story.>

You still repeating the same argument? Communist cooperatives were neither communist nor cooperatives, but plain instruments of the State and production plans...:confused:

Real cooperatives are a success. Even an American president would acknowledge that...

CLINTON HIGHLIGHTS SUCCESS OF COOPERATIVES IN PROVIDING JOBS AND OPPORTUNITY IN RURAL AMERICA

HERMITAGE, ARK., Nov. 5, 1999 -- In 1996, a group of 15 farmers with limited resources and land, most on the verge of bankruptcy, formed the Hermitage Tomato Cooperative in this town of less than 700 people. Today, President Bill Clinton and Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman toured the Hermitage Tomato Cooperative, praised this $4 million per year business, and held it up as a model of economic success in a struggling sector of the nation's rural economy.

The Hermitage Cooperative took off, in part, because of $4 million in loan guarantees from the U.S. Department of Agriculture and a USDA-negotiated agreement for the sale of tomatoes to Burger King.

President Clinton said that this kind of public-private partnership is exactly what his New Markets Initiative is all about. He said the Hermitage Cooperative is proof positive that a few innovative people -- with some help from their government and a commitment from the private sector -- can turn a community around and create a brighter future.

"Before they formed a cooperative and purchased this plant, these Hermitage tomato farmers were tiny fish in a huge sea and their outlook was grim," Glickman said. "Now, their future appears bright as sales are soaring to major customers such as Burger King and national grocery chains."

Clinton also announced a new agreement under which Burger King's purchasing agent will buy up to 3.2 million pounds of cucumbers from the Mississippi Association of Cooperatives, a group of minority-owned cooperatives in the Mississippi Delta.

Glickman said USDA is currently finalizing an additional $5 million in loan guarantees to help the Hermitage Cooperative expand its packing operations, build a convenience store and farm supply outlet, and create more local jobs. Glickman noted that the cooperative is also now experimenting with greenhouse tomatoes, which would enable it to expand its growing season to nine months each year. He said USDA would continue working to encourage businesses to purchase produce from small agricultural cooperatives.

Glickman also announced that the National Bankers Association has signed an agreement with USDA to provide $18 million in credit to qualified, minority-owned businesses and limited resource farmers and ranchers.

USDA's Business and Industry Guaranteed Loan Program will offer $850 million in grants and loans this fiscal year to support the development of new or expanded businesses in rural America. Of these funds, about $150 million are expected to fund rural cooperatives.

http://www.usda.gov/events/0440.htm

[Bader]

I notice
Mr Clinton taking the opportunity to laud the partnership between
the private and public sectors, yet the free-market propoganda rubbished the public sector as a hinderance. It didn't last long and now as Chompsky said a few posts ago the public sector is providing a prop/ security to private corporatism. This development turns free-market into fascist-market which shows how narrow and blurred are the lines between capitalism-fascism-state capitalism. And all paying the same piper.

[donquijote]

<Mr Clinton taking the opportunity to laud the partnership between
the private and public sectors, yet the free-market propoganda rubbished the public sector as a hinderance. It didn't last long and now as Chompsky said a few posts ago the public sector is providing a prop/ security to private corporatism. This development turns free-market into fascist-market which shows how narrow and blurred are the lines between capitalism-fascism-state capitalism. And all paying the same piper. >

Howdy Bader
True. What struck me though is the fact of the amount of aid to the cooperatives.

$150 million for coops vs. $50,OOO million a year for the war effort, looks a 'tad' unbalanced to me, isn't not?

[donquijote]

More interesting info. The economics of it--your favorite stuff--is at the end...

Bader, I think we can leave the lion alone for a while and concentrate on the way out of the jungle, shall we?

PS: Notice this has been written Down Under. And there are also many cooperative links. There's one on New Zealand--the Kiwi Revolution?--we can discuss later. You are from there, right?

Cooperatives
Alternative economic structures
and business enterprises
By Dieter Dambiec

The basic reason for having cooperatives as a form of economic enterprise in an economy is to help people work together and move forward in a collective way. Cooperatives are considered to be the best form of economic enterprise because they are capable of seeking a balanced adjustment between collective spirit and individual rights. Dieter
Dambiec summarizes Prout's views on cooperatives.

Cooperation means getting things done with collective effort. The benefit
of cooperatives is that they combine the wealth and resources of many
individuals and harness them in a united way. To help achieve this,
however, cooperatives should be structured so that individual interest
does not dominate collective interests. Individual dominance can
adversely effect the welfare of different social groups and the
environment.

Essence of cooperatives
Cooperatives as a form of economic enterprise involve getting things done between free human beings with:
(i) equal rights;
(ii) equal human prestige (and mutual respect for each other);
(iii) equal locus standi (eg, legal standing) so that everyone's welfare
is considered.

This is called "coordinated cooperation" and is needed for equilibrium
and equipoise in social life. A socio-economic system should be based on
coordinated cooperation not subordinated cooperation.

"Subordinated cooperation" involves people doing something individually
or collectively, but at the same time keeping themselves under other
peoples' supervision or control. This can degenerate the moral fabric of
an enterprise and should be avoided when structuring cooperative business enterprises.

(snip)

Unemployment
Sarkar further states that in the cooperative system unemployment will be solved. This is because as production increases the need for more human resources and for the construction and operation of more facilities will also increase. Educated people can be properly employed as skilled
workers. There will also be a need for tractor drivers, labourers,
cultivators, etc. who as cooperative members will naturally do this work.

In times of economic downturn everyone's labour will be proportionately
reduced so that no one suffers the stigma of being unemployed. In this
way economic downturns will always be short and temporary.

Sarkar is confident that cooperatives will solve the unemployment problem and states that in the cooperative system there should be no compulsory date for superannuation. People should be free to work as long as they like providing their health permits. This is in contrast to some government policies which encourage older people to retire in order to make room for younger people. Following is a look at other aspects of
Sarkar's cooperative concept.

Workforce composition
All groups in the cooperative workforce will benefit from the
cooperative's profits. The members of a cooperative will be composed of:
(i) shareholders - who receive salaries for their work plus a return on
their shares;
(ii) non-shareholders or labourers - who enjoy stable employment and
favourable wages.

Non-shareholding labourers can be further categorized into those who are:
(i) permanent labourers - who get bonuses and premiums (dividends) as
incentives besides their wages; and
(ii) casual or contract labourers - who only get wages for their labour.

Labourers or workers also include those who are engaged in cooperative
management. They will be entitled to draw dividends and salaries on the
basis of their membership in and services they render to the cooperative.

This structure allows cooperatives to develop a proper incentive system
so that individual initiative by talented people is encouraged. An
incentive system should ensure that intelligent people are not forced to
do work which is unsuitable for them, or be paid the same wages as
ordinary workers. If skilled workers get paid more than unskilled workers
there will be an incentive for all to become skilled and work harder. In
this way the cooperative will encourage the educational and skill
upgrading of its members.

In addition, workers who give the greatest service to the cooperative
should get the greatest bonuses. Bonuses should be paid in proportion to
wage rates and should reflect both the skill and productivity of the
worker.

Shareholder composition
Members who purchase shares in a cooperative should have no power or
right to transfer their shares without the permission of the cooperative.
Such a pre-emptive right allows existing shareholders to determine the
basis of membership, and prevents capitalist entrepreneurs from
purchasing large numbers of shares in a cooperative and speculating in
the market. Speculative activity can easily lead to a depression and this
will of course effect the cooperative.

Shares can however be inherited. The shares of cooperative members
without descendants simply pass on to their legally authorised
successors, who become members of the cooperative if they are not already members. Different countries have different systems of inheritance, so the right of inheritance should be decided according to the system in vogue. In western common law countries if someone inherits shares in a business enterprise and does not want to become a member of that enterprise, existing shareholders simply buy that person out. Presumably the same reasoning can be applied to cooperatives. Following this arrangement will help cooperative members avoid litigation.

Because cooperative members will be from the same vicinity they will all
know each other, so there should be no difficulty in deciding who should
be able to buy such shares due to ignorance about potential shareholders.

Disadvantaged persons can also benefit from the cooperative system. A
widow, disabled worker or minor can all own shares and derive an income
based on the number of shares they own. Therefore even if as cooperative members are unable to work, they will still be entitled to an income from cooperative profits. Establishing such a structure on a large scale should be able to do away with the welfare state mentality prevalent in capitalist societies.

Dividend distribution
In a cooperative system there will be no preference shares. Today
preference shares are used by some financial institutions as a substitute
for debt investments (ie., loans to businesses). Preference shares really
mean that a lender in the guise of a shareholder has first grab at co-op
dividends and therefore co-op profits. Such investors should become
ordinary shareholders like other co-op members and share proportionately
in the success (or perhaps otherwise) of the co-op.

The state and cooperatives

Taxation
Taxes, levies, excise duties, etc. should be paid collectively by the
cooperative, not individuals. This frees individuals from financial
pressure and economic exploitation through personal taxation systems.

The primary source of taxation revenue in a PROUT system would appear to be at the point of production. This makes sense in that enterprises which make first use of resources have a social responsibility to ensure proper utilisation and rational distribution; taxation imposes some restraint to ensure this responsibility is carried out.

full text...

http://www.proutworl...tures/coops.htm

[donquijote]

> : This South Korean farmer took his life because there's was no place
> : for his farming way of life. And that not only happens in Korea but
> : even in the heartland of America. Regrettably the world is becoming a
> : factory...
>
> The West became a factory 200 years ago. Lifespans doubled.
> Infant mortality plunged. Several terrible diseases were eradicated or
> rendered laughable. People went from owning two changes of clothes to
> owning dozens. People stopped having horses shit in the streets. I hope
> to God we don't impose this monstrosity on those poor people living
> virtuously on their garbage heaps.

"We've come a long way baby," said the old lady coughing.

"Yeah, but your lungs are ****ed up," replied the little girl sitting
next to her. "You look good in those cigarette commercials, but you
ain't got nothing but memories now."

Moral: We may be coughing pollution but you have to look at the bright
side of it...

But what about what we have done needlessly to the world in barely 100
years? We certainly had more gadgets and automobiles but we died from
obesity and ate tasteless junk food laden with pesticides. Nevermind,
let's look at the bright side of it...
>
> : Since the end of World War II, farmers in the US have been persuaded
> : to adopt one new technology after another, hoping to improve their
> : yields, reduce their costs, and outsell their neighbors. By embracing
> : this industrial model of agriculture --one that focuses narrowly on
> : the level of inputs and outputs, that encourages specialization in
> : just one crop, that relies heavily on chemical fertilizers,
> : pesticides, fungicides, herbicides, advanced harvesting and irrigation
> : equipment-- American farmers have become the most productive farmers
> : on earth. Every increase in productivity, however, has driven more
> : American farmers off the land. And it has left those who remain
> : beholden to the companies that supply the inputs and the processors
> : that buy the outputs.
>
> Yes, it would be a vast improvement if all the machinery of
> farming were scrapped and thrown into the sea. That way, all of us would
> have work scratching our food out of the earth with our bare hands. True,
> 99.999% of the human population would starve to death, but that remaining
> .001% would be living a hearty, virtuous life.

Or we may be living a fully modern life without all the pollution,
junk food and the senseless commercialization and commodityfication of
the rural and urban environment, can't we?

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

[donquijote]

//To use your metaphor, how do we make the lion want to leave the jungle? Especially into a world where even a I, a liberal and staunch idealist, would suffocate a little?//

It is in the interest of the lion to leave the jungle for several reasons:

-The hungry lion is doomed by the violent monkeys that sooner or later will get him--and everybody else in the process.

-The lion will be safer not in a chaotic jungle where everybody wants him badly, but one where he is admired for his good manners. Example, the lion lives better in Scandinavia than in Colombia, where he fears kidnappings, etc.

-The predatory practices of the hungry lion make the jungle ugly and unsustainable.

-And last but not least, he will be fed and well taken of the way they are in some distant lands...

As for you fearing life without the lion, what specifically made you suffocate a little, if everything has been proven to work and it is absolutely optional?

http:webspawner.com/users/donquijote