7545 replies to this topic

[donquijote]

<De donde eres wey??? donde naciste, como sabes espa?ol>

Having lived in a Spanish country up to age 25, and using Spanish to get around helped me learn it...

I'm from Cuba, and you?

This the Jalapeno Revolution...

ENCUESTA DEL JALAPENO

A UD. LE GUSTA EL JALAPENO VERDE Y PEQUENO O ROJO Y GRANDE?

__ Verde y pequeno
__ A mi me gusta rojo y grande
__ Como sea pero que sea picoso

http://webspawner.co...ers/donquijote8

[donquijote]

<Any homeless found unable pay the tax can go into the welfare
prisons where both a home and food is supplied by the workers who pay taxes. So get a job and lighten the load.>

Howdy Bader
Don't say it outloud, they may hear you...

Nowadays with privatized prisons just as with privatized wars, they may just be tempted to reach for the homeless...

"It's the new slavery," says Randall Robinson. "It's destroying the younger generation of Black people," he told us at Trinity College in Connecticut earlier this year. This leading African-American thinker points to "the built-in bias and discrimination of the system. It ensures this huge pool of labour. In our democracy, we have private prisons. When as private corporations you own prisons, the only way you can get your stocks to go up is to get more prisoners."

http://www.the-catbi...vatePrisons.htm

[donquijote]

Poll taking place at...

http://engforum.prav...&threadid=36769

It seems we are not the only victims of the lion.

The question being whether it's gonna be God or us to tame him...

Awake! photographer "throws" zookeeper to the lions
By Rado Vleugel

Posted on 10 19 2002

For more than a century Jehovah's Witnesses are waiting for the New World where "the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them-" (Isaiah 11:6-9).

Their imagination is sometimes so strong that they pretend they already live in paradise where the lion lost his appetite for human flesh. George Koll, owner of the 77 Zoological Park in Florida Panhandle was giving a tour to several reporters from Awake! magazine, published by the Jehovah's Witnesses, when the Awake! photographer asked him to get in the cage with the lion for a picture.

The male lion, with the biblical name Samson, grabbed Koll by the neck and dragged him across the cage after the zookeeper slipped and fell in the cage. The Awake! photographer jumped into the cage with a stick and pushed the lion away from Koll.

The zookeeper's condition is serious but stable. I don't think the Awake! will publish the lion attack photo's-

http://www.watchtowe...ce.org/lion.htm

[donquijote]

<I'd give you an example: You get a half a gallon of junk ice cream for, say, 3 bucks with all kinds of s*** in there, but a quarter gallon of healthful soy ice cream go for the same price. Then you tax the junk ice cream $1.50 and pass it on to the healthy soy ice cream. And the same thing for thousands and thousands of products for which there's a healthy alternative. Go to any of the large health foods and you'll find anything from soy hamburgers to natural cola soda. Nobody has to suffer. Just give them the right incentive and the poor will have a chance to change. Otherwise it'll only be the lion preying on the innocent little animals and their kids.>

I forgot something: Whatever real increase in the cost of food--50% in the case of the ice cream above--can be offset with the "LIVING WAGES," which can compensate for that cost or any other cost increase.

What do you think about it, Bader?

Family Budgets and Self Sufficiency Standards

There are now countless examples of solid study methodologies that take advantage of geographically specific data on expenditures (food, housing, health care, transportation, child care. misc.) to calculate a truer

[donquijote]

Here's another problem with the mighty hungry lion: He eats everything until he eats himself. And fast food accounts for a good chunk of that destruction.

I'd remind GI that not only I quote the Chomsky but also the Jehova's Witness magazine 'Awake!' Like I posted before, it remains to be seen whether it's gonna be God or us to stop the lion, if he doesn't eat us first...:confused:

'In the Central and South American rain forests, cattle ranching is another major cause of deforestation. The beef from these cattle usually ends up in North America, where fast-food chains have a huge appetite for cheap hamburger meat.

Ranchers, however, run into the same problem as the small-scale farmers. The pasture that springs up among the ashes of a rain forest can rarely support cattle for more than five years. *Converting rain forest into hamburgers may be profitable for a few, but it must rank as one of the most wasteful ways of producing food that man has ever devised*.'

http://watchtower.or.../article_01.htm

[Bader]

Howdy DonQ,

Using taxes to counter the symptims of the debt money system
and its adverse social imbalance is standard formula in economics,
in particular the socialistic approach.
At the end of the day the lower socio-economic sector pays the most through taxes to get a benefit. This actually equats to Govt
directing peoples lives on their behalf. Making people dependant on Govt is excellent for the politicians to retain more power than they are entitled to. That is their reward for being blind,
wittingly or unwitting in regards the fraudulent debt money system.
Reform the money system so that it ceases to be fraudulent
and becomes a servant (democratic/ property of the people) will
enable the people to become better off and thus able to buy good food, housing and thus better health and family conditions.
Down stream the state won't have to try and provide so many ambulances at the bottem of the cliff ( =huge taxes).

Living wage? You might be talking my language. Give us some more on that.

Reforming the debt money system would also reform capitalism
and reduce tha role of the state, bring in reverse taxes (this comes into paying people instead of robbing them- it's bad enough the banks robbing people without the state jumping in
and robbing them as well on the pretext of helping people
survive the first crime by the banks).
That's how phoney this capitalism v. socialism is (two fighers in the ring both under the same promoter who gains from the
two sides and their supporters)
As I have said before, Marx knew about the banks, that they were
the greatest promoter of State power and dependancy on the
state, as well as the greatest dynamic for centralizing power
as we see in global regimes swallowing up national ones and
corporates swallowing up smaller ones and competiters towards
monopoly. Lenins goal in my view was global centralized "democracy". I tell people that if he was alive today he would be quite excited at how close the Free-Market had brought the world to this. The Soviet experiment has certainly failed to achieve it- even with the help of western corporations.

[donquijote]

<Using taxes to counter the symptims of the debt money system
and its adverse social imbalance is standard formula in economics,
in particular the socialistic approach.
At the end of the day the lower socio-economic sector pays the most through taxes to get a benefit. This actually equats to Govt
directing peoples lives on their behalf. Making people dependant on Govt is excellent for the politicians to retain more power than they are entitled to. That is their reward for being blind,
wittingly or unwitting in regards the fraudulent debt money system.
Reform the money system so that it ceases to be fraudulent
and becomes a servant (democratic/ property of the people) will
enable the people to become better off and thus able to buy good food, housing and thus better health and family conditions.
Down stream the state won't have to try and provide so many ambulances at the bottem of the cliff ( =huge taxes).>

Howdy Bader
I see an Humanism leaning toward anarchism, not toward socialism, addressing the needs of the people directly, and even abandoning anarchism itself when it doesn't serve the needs of the people. Let me give you an example, I strongly believe that *the needs of women and children should be the highest priorities*, such as in Scandinavia, and I further believe that those needs can be mostly addressed by coops and local government... However when their basic needs are not being met we can provide a safety net, which of course, would far less used than it is today. What do you think?

<Living wage? You might be talking my language. Give us some more on that.>

It's absolutely doable, and it almost amounts to the taming of the lion. (I believe absolute taming of the lion to be voluntary association, say to a coop or even to a maquiladora, for those who need the lion.)

Here are a few place where it's working...

Listed below, from most recent to earliest passed, are places which have enacted local living wage laws.

Current Total = 112

City and County Campaigns
2003 Click for Ordinance Summary Month Living Wage w/o Health Benefits Updated
Port Hueneme CA October 9.00 11.50 10/03

Lansing MI September 11.50 11.50 10/03

Lakewood OH July 9.20 10.20 7/03

Dayton OH July 8.80 10.60 7/03

Arlington VA June 10.98 10.98 7/03

Ingham County MI June 9.20 11.50 7/03

Prince George's County MD June 10.50 10.50 7/03

Santa Fe NM February 8.50 8.50 6/03

Orlando FL January 8.50 8.50 9/03

http://www.livingwag...g/shortwins.php

<I tell people that if he was alive today he would be quite excited at how close the Free-Market had brought the world to this. The Soviet experiment has certainly failed to achieve it- even with the help of western corporations.>

Where Capitalism has been most successful--and where Communim failed by causing millions of deaths by collectivization or simply inproductivity--is at keeping the worker salivating over material stuff, just like the Pavlov's experiment with the dogs when they responded to the bell--advertising. It's like America sells you a "dream," never a reality, which may turn out to be a nightmare. The other day I went by one of those shelters for the homeless--which are run by "charities"--and it was a scene fitting of Dante's, with the homeless overflowing the facilities. However the sign outside ran: '"Hope" for all'...

This philosophy is very simple in nature: "Why kill the cow, if you can milk it?";)

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

[donquijote]

Since we are dealing with the Jungle...

A. ANIMAL BEHAVIOR AND HUMAN SOCIETY
1. Many problems in human society are often related to the interaction of environment and behavior or genetics and behavior. The fields of socioecology and animal behavior deal with the issue of environment behavioral interactions both at an evolutionary level and a proximate level. Increasingly social scientists are turning to animal behavior as a framework in which to interpret human society and to understand possible causes of societal problems. (e.g. Daly and Wilson's book on human homicide is based on an evolutionary analysis from animal research. Many studies on child abuse utilize theory and data from studies on infanticide in animals.)

2. Research by de Waal on chimpanzees and monkeys has illustrated the importance of cooperation and reconciliation in social groups. This work provides new perspectives by which to view and ameliorate aggressive behavior among human beings.

3. The methodology applied to study animal behavior has had a tremendous impact in psychology and the social sciences. Jean Piaget began his career with the study of snails, and he extended the use of careful behavioral observations and descriptions to his landmark studies on human cognitive development. J. B. Watson began his study of behavior by observing gulls. Aspects of experimental design, observation techniques, attention to nonverbal communication signals were often developed in animal behavior studies before their application to studies of human behavior. The behavioral study of humans would be much diminished today without the influence of animal research.

4. Charles Darwin's work on emotional expression in animals has had an important influence on many psychologists, such as Paul Ekman, who study human emotional behavior.

5. Harry Harlow's work on social development in rhesus monkeys has been of major importance to theories of child development and to psychiatry. The work of Overmier, Maier and Seligman on learned helplessness has had a similar effect on child development and psychiatry.

6. The comparative study of behavior over a wide range of species can provide insights into influences affecting human behavior. For example, the woolly spider monkey in Brazil displays no overt aggressive behavior among group members. We might learn how to minimize human aggression if we understood how this species of monkey avoids aggression. If we want to have human fathers be more involved in infant care, we can study the conditions under which paternal care has appeared in other species like the California mouse or in marmosets and tamarins. Studies of various models of the ontogeny of communication in birds and mammals have had direct influence on the development of theories and the research directions in the study of child language. The richness of developmental processes in behavior, including multiple sources and the consequences of experience are significant in understanding processes of human development.

7. Understanding the differences in adaptability between species that can live in a variety of habitats versus those that are restricted to limited habitats can lead to an understanding of how we might improve human adaptability as our environments change.

8. Research by animal behaviorists on animal sensory systems has led to practical applications for extending human sensory systems. Griffin's demonstrations on how bats use sonar to locate objects has led directly to the use of sonar techniques in a wide array of applications from the military to fetal diagnostics.

9. Studies of chimpanzees using language analogues have led to new technology (computer keyboards using arbitrary symbols) that have been applied successfully to teaching language to disadvantaged human populations.

10. Basic research on circadian and other endogenous rhythms in animals has led to research relevant to human factors and productivity in areas such as coping with jet-lag or changing from one shift to another.

11. Research on animals has developed many of the important concepts relating to coping with stress, for example studies of the importance of prediction and control on coping behavior.

http://www.animalbeh...albehavior.html

[Bader]

Howdy DonQ,

Hope costs nothing, give liberally!!!!!!

"I see humanism leaning....even abandoning anachism when it doesnt meet the needs of the people."
sounds about right.

Democracy is of the people by the people and for the the people.
Democracy is not of the "ism", by the people for the "ism"
elite.

Living wage:
Unfortunately there is no clearly defined statement up front as
to what it is but I think I found what it is about-
correct me if I'm wrong.

Where companies (private) and I would expect public bodies since they are receiving public money would auto. be included, the living wage campaigners seek to get local authority to determine that recipients of wages do get a fair bottemline wage rate consistent with the cost of living.

The principle that public discretion must prevail regards what happens with public money is well founded as basic democracy.
That is why I advocate the public must prevail over a public money supply system. In U.S. as covered previously Congress gave away the publics sovereign ownership of money creation to private bankers. Had they retained it democratic forces would prevail over all use of public money, meaninng the living wage
intent would be a characteristic right across the whole public and private sectors making like easier for everyone (private and public sectors) not just the biggest vicitms of the racket run by the Fed.

When I see all those campaigns and people all over the place
and think of what Pliny said about ignorance and the need for
publicwide education on such a vital aspect of democratic society
it is so sad they can't use their numbers for educating the public
and effecting the vote.

There are other people in the U.K. and Europe who are campaigning for a Universal Income. This is similar but broader to
take in everyone. It consists of everyone being given a basic wage from the national tax pool which would mean all the benefits and pensions would cease to exist being replaced by a universal payout to all and the bureaucracy of those govnt
depts that handled the various benefits eg unemployments etc
would disappear along with their expensive overheads.
But this like the living wage is based on taxes and the most influential sector of the society always get the rules to apply more heavily to those below, so people have to pay more to get more back, while public debt grows further into the red making govnt more exposed to international banker policy- making democracy impossible.
Its the same as unions leveraging higher wages. It goes back into prices which hits the union members in the back of the head down the road.
We have to lance the boils and stop putting bandages over them.

[donquijote]

//Where Capitalism has been most successful--and where Communim failed by causing millions of deaths by collectivization or simply inproductivity--is at keeping the worker salivating over material stuff, just like the Pavlov's experiment with the dogs when they responded to the bell--advertising. It's like America sells you a "dream," never a reality, which may turn out to be a nightmare. The other day I went by one of those shelters for the homeless--which are run by "charities"--and it was a scene fitting of Dante's, with the homeless overflowing the facilities. However the sign outside ran: '"Hope" for all'...//

This is what I said before, and here's what going on with mind conditioning.

It may turn out that all you need to run the world is...a bell!

'Does your mouth water when you hear the sound of the ice cream man coming down your street? If so, then you have been conditioned to salivate at the sound. In the early 1900s, Ivan Pavlov studied this conditioned response when he trained dogs to salivate at the sound of a bell. Pavlov knew that dogs naturally salivated when meat was fed to them. To condition this salivation, Pavlov rang a bell each time he presented the food to the dogs. After the ringing bell was paired many times with the presentation of the meat, the dogs salivated when they heard the bell, but BEFORE they saw the food. In other words, the dogs had become conditioned because they expected that the meat reward would follow the sound of the bell.

Humans can become conditioned in much the same way as Pavlov's dogs. In a recent two-part experiment, scientists, using brain imaging methods, have learned which parts of the brain are active when people associate visual images with food smells. *This research also suggests that if Pavlov's dogs had been allowed to eat all the meat they wanted, then the conditioned response would have disappeared*.' [Could it be the reason why the lion keeps the little animals always thirsty while controlling the water well?]

more...

http://faculty.washi...dler/train.html

[donquijote]

> > Moral: We don't need lions or violent monkeys that become lions. No
> > Lion No Problem!
>
> Then who would get rid of the stupid monkeys?

The stupid monkeys are a consequence of the lion and the laws of the
jungle and instead of 'liberators'--to some--they would look pathetic
or even criminal if there was no 'cause' for them...

[donquijote]

"There is nothing but a lack of social vision to prevent us from paying an
adequate wage to every American citizen... There is nothing except shortsightedness
to prevent us from guaranteeing an annual minimum- and livable- income for
every American family."

-- Martin Luther King, Jr.

<Hope costs nothing, give liberally!!!!!!>

Howdy Bader
I know, maybe they can give it away at the sound of Pavlov's bell!

//"I see humanism leaning....even abandoning anachism when it doesnt meet the needs of the people."//
<sounds about right.

Democracy is of the people by the people and for the the people.
Democracy is not of the "ism", by the people for the "ism"
elite.>

I've seen more than once an elite running the country "democratically"... In a writing of mine I have a dictator gather the people--represented by a general--to conduct a hand vote--and the general had lost both arms! Go and figure...

<Living wage:
Unfortunately there is no clearly defined statement up front as
to what it is but I think I found what it is about-
correct me if I'm wrong.

Where companies (private) and I would expect public bodies since they are receiving public money would auto. be included, the living wage campaigners seek to get local authority to determine that recipients of wages do get a fair bottemline wage rate consistent with the cost of living.>

That's exactly what it is: a wage consistent with the cost of living. Look at this one...

'The concept is simple. It is based on the premise that if a person works 40 hours a week, then he/she should be able to access basic housing. We use two existing Federal guidelines to determine what the Universal Living Wage should be. The first guideline (a HUD standard also used by banking institutions across America) dictates that no more than 30% of a person's gross monthly income should be spent on housing. The second guideline, the Fair Market Rents (FMRs) are established by HUD throughout the country for each municipality and all other areas. Therefore, the Universal Living Wage will vary per area in accordance with the FMR. FMRs are based on gross rent estimates which include shelter, rent and the cost of utilities except telephone service.
We believe that this format, using already established government guidelines, enables us to utilize existing government formulas to easily justify specific Universal Living Wage figures that are based on the need for housing and are appropriate to each municipality and outlying areas.'

There's an ULW formula...

http://www.universallivingwage.org/

And also (remember we spoke about this book before?)...

'We want to draw your attention to a new book that just hit the stands. NICKEL AND DIMED: On (Not) Getting By in America by Barbara Ehrenreich is the story of how this writer tested her hypothesis that low-wage workers simply can't make ends meet, even in a booming economy where their services are in demand.

Ehrenreich traveled from Key West, FL to Portland, ME to Minneapolis, MN, working as an aide in a nursing home, a waitress, a maid, and a stocker for a major discount chain. She found cost of living equally high, and wages for unskilled labor depressingly low.

This woman may be a crusader, but she knows how to tell her story with wit, able to use her sense of the absurd to tell a surreal and often grimly humorous tale of her travels on the low end of the pay scale. And she freely admits she had only a taste of it--she had a car, a savings account, and her health, things most low-end workers rarely possess. She could walk away from these situations, unlike hundreds of thousands of Americans.

Most of the crusading comes in her last chapter, a summation of her thoughts and impressions after experiencing the humiliations and trials so many live with their entire lives.'

<When I see all those campaigns and people all over the place
and think of what Pliny said about ignorance and the need for
publicwide education on such a vital aspect of democratic society
it is so sad they can't use their numbers for educating the public
and effecting the vote.>

Education is key. You can't know what you need, if you don't even know it exists!

<There are other people in the U.K. and Europe who are campaigning for a Universal Income. This is similar but broader to
take in everyone. It consists of everyone being given a basic wage from the national tax pool which would mean all the benefits and pensions would cease to exist being replaced by a universal payout to all and the bureaucracy of those govnt
depts that handled the various benefits eg unemployments etc
would disappear along with their expensive overheads.
But this like the living wage is based on taxes and the most influential sector of the society always get the rules to apply more heavily to those below, so people have to pay more to get more back, while public debt grows further into the red making govnt more exposed to international banker policy- making democracy impossible.
Its the same as unions leveraging higher wages. It goes back into prices which hits the union members in the back of the head down the road.
We have to lance the boils and stop putting bandages over them.>

All the above options include dealing with the lion though he's tamed. Otherwise we got the coops, where there's no lion...

I see the living wage as a better option because higher prices would be tied to higher wages

Perhaps a combination of coops and living wages can put an end to the jungle.

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

[donquijote]

Hey Bader, don't get me wrong: I ain't talking about the "hope" they give to the homeless, but I mean *real hope for all*.

No wonder some little animals need the lion...

"Man is an automaton who can be caused to act as one wills! This is the ideal of capitalism [and totalitarianism]!"

Political Conditioning

'Political conditioning should not be confused with training or persuasion or even indoctrination. It is more than that. It is tampering. It is taking possession of both the simplest and the most complicated nervous patterns of man. It is the battle for the possession of the nerve cells. It is coercion and enforced conversion. Instead of conditioning man to an unbiased facing of reality, the seducer conditions him to catchwords, verbal stereotypes, slogans, formulas, symbols. Pavlovian strategy in the totalitarian sense means imprinting prescribed reflexes on a mind that has been broken down. The totalitarian wants first the required response from the nerve cells, then control of the individual, and finally control of the masses. The system starts with verbal conditioning and training by combining the required stereotypes with negative or positive stimuli: pain, or reward. In the P.O.W. camps in Korea where there was individual and mass brainwashing, the negative and positive conditioning stimuli were usually hunger and food. The moment the soldier conformed to the party line his food ration was improved: say yes, and I'll give you a piece of candy!

The whole gamut of negative stimuli, as we saw them in the Schwable case, consists of physical pressure, moral pressure, fatigue, hunger, boring repetition, confusion by seemingly logical syllogisms. Many victims of totalitarianism have told me in interviews that the most upsetting experience they faced in the concentration camps was the feeling of loss of logic, the state of confusion into which they had been brought the state in which nothing had any validity. They had arrived at the Pavlovian state of inhibition, which psychiatrists call mental disintegration or depersonalization. It seemed as if they had unlearned all their former responses and had not yet adopted new ones. But in reality they simply did not know what was what.

The Pavlovian theory translated into a political method, as a way of leveling the mind (the Nazis called it "Gleichschaltung") is the stock in trade of totalitarian countries. Some psychiatric points are of interest because we see that Pavlovian training can be used successfully only when special mental conditions prevail. In order to tame people into the desired pattern, victims must be brought to a point where they have lost their alert consciousness and mental awareness. Freedom of discussion and free intellectual exchange hinder conditioning. Feelings of terror, feelings of fear and hopelessness, of being alone, of standing with one's back to the wall, must be instilled.

The treatment of American prisoners of war in the Korean P.O.W. camps followed just such a pattern. They were compelled to listen to lectures and other forms of daily word barrage. The very fact that they did not understand the lectures and were bored by the long sessions inhibited their democratic training, and conditioned them to swallow passively the bitter doctrinal diet, for the prisoners were subjectd not only to a political training program, but also to an involuntary taming program. To some degree the Communist propaganda lectures were directed toward retraining the prisoners' minds. This training our soldiers could reject, but the endless repetitions and the constant sloganizing, together with the physical hardships and deprivations the prisoners suffered, caused an UNCONSCIOUS TAMING and conditioning, against which only previously built up inner strength and awareness could help.

There is still another reason why our soldiers were sometimes trapped by the Communist conditioning. Experiments with animals and experiences with human beings have taught us that threat, tension, and anxiety, in general, may accelerate the establishment of conditioned responses, particularly when those responses tend to diminish fear and panic (Spence and Farber). The emergency of prison camp life and mental torture provide ideal circumstances for such conditioning. The responses can develop even when the victim is completely unaware that he is being influenced. Thus, many of our soldiers developed automatic responses of which they remained completely unconscious (Segal). But this is only one side of the coin, for experience has also shown that people who know what to expect under conditions of mental pressure can develop a so called perceptual defense, which protects them from being influenced. This means that the more familiar people are with the concepts of thought control and menticide, the more they understand the nature of the propaganda barrage directed against them, the more inner resistance they can put up, even though inevitably some of the inquisitor's suggestions will leak through the barrier of conscious mental defense.

Our understanding of the conditioning process leads us also to an understanding of some of the paradoxical reactions found among victims of concentration camps and other prisoners. Often those with a rigid, simple belief were better able to withstand the continual barrage against their minds than were the flexible, sophisticated ones, full of doubt and inner conflicts. The simple man with deep rooted, freely absorbed religious faith could exert a much greater inner resistance than could the complex, questioning intellectualist. The refined intellectual is much more handicapped by the internal pros and cons.

In totalitarian countries, where belief in Pavlovian strategy has assumed grotesque proportions, the self thinking, subjective man has disappeared. There is an utter rejection of any attempt at persuasion or discussion. Individual self expression is taboo. Private affection is taboo.

Peaceful exchange of free thoughts in free conversation will disturb the conditioned reflexes and is therefore taboo. No longer are there any brains, only conditioned patterns and educated muscles. In such a taming system neurotic compulsion is looked upon as a positive asset instead of something pathological. The mental automaton becomes the ideal of education.

Yet the Soviet theoreticians themselves are often unaware of this, and many of them do not realize the dire consequences of subjecting man to a completely mechanistic conditioning. They themselves are often just as frightened as we are by the picture of the perfectly functioning human robot. This is what one of their psychologists says: "The entire reactionary nature of this approach to man is completely clear. *Man is an automaton who can be caused to act as one wills! This is the ideal of capitalism!* Behold the dream of capitalism the world over a working class without consciousness, which cannot think for itself, whose actions can be trained according to the whim of the exploiter! This is the reason why it is in America, the bulwark of present day capitalism, that the theory of man as a robot has been so vigorously developed and so stubbornly held to."' (Bauer)

However there's hope...love and laughter!

'Even in laboratory animals we have found that affective goal directedness can spoil the Pavlovian experiment. When, during a bell food training session, the dog's beloved master entered the room, the animal lost all its previous conditioning and began to bark excitedly. Here is a simple example of an age old truth: *love and laughter break through all rigid conditioning*. The rigid automaton cannot exist without spontaneous self expression. Apparently, the fact that the dog's spontaneous affection for his master could ruin all the mechanical calculations and manipulations never occurred to Pavlov's totalitarian students.'

http://www.ninehundr...rol/mc-ch2.html

[Bader]

What's that Martha, I can't here for the ringing.

Howdy DonQ,
I was just joking about the hope after the shelter story which is pathetic in a world of abundance. Its one thing to provide some shelter for the homeless and another shelter from the Lion which is why the shelter was pathetic although the best those good hearted people could do.

Research on animals: doubtless there have been some benefits.
Interesting that westerner Darwin was largely ignored in the west
obviously his theory was more suited to the conditioning in the
communist totalitarian system where there was no public competition- closed society.
If I wanted to know about horses, breading and training I would
take notice of what successful horse trainers and breeders had
found out from experience in handling horses.
I wouldn't be interested in someone who breed snails and garden pests for keys to borrow and try.
Humans have been nursing humans for thousands of years, what
happened to accumulated knowledge that we had to watch tadpoles etc. This reminds me of the comment in one of your posts about the loss of logic which depersonalises people.
In the communist system which is closed conditioning was by a different method- direct with open/options closed. In the west
it is by media where political correctness pats the right conditioning on the back as repeticious as ringing the bell and
rubbishes anything more real or true that works against conditioning.
For Russia to become number one it needs to accept your post
contents about what totalitarian systems do with public minds
and start healing the nations minds who have been through the system and teaching the young ones how to think. I have given a
quote from U.S academic who claims the U.S. education system
teaches them so they can't think. With the U.S. going backwards
and Russia going forwards they should pass at a greater rate of knots.

Living Wage:
Any system based on Taxes is surrender to the Lion banking system. We can do better than something with good intentions like the Shelter for the homeless, same as living and universal wages based on tax. (still too depersonalising!)
KIng was right- lack of social vision (=conditioning) and shortsightedness (=blindness by conditioning).
Barbara Ehrenreich makes a mockery of the bell ringing chorus
"get a job" which has become very common since the free market
diatribe has been cut loose. She shows that a job isn't enough anymore. It might be considered more intelligent to say "get another life" so both of them can go out to work at the same time
since that is where we are heading.

The shortcomings of animal testing is that the mental presumptions of the testers tend to find only proof of what the want to discover. The reason the dogs got excited when the owner came in was they were protesting about the stupid bell
and that stupid sadsack who everytime the bell rang mindlessly came in and fed them the same rubbish the owner knew better than to give at home.

[Bader]

Just a further comment DonQ regards the messing with peoples minds through defying logic-disorienting-control by chaos:
the whole saga of Sept 11 is one of disorienting defying of logic
on just about everything.
All the explanations dont add up. There is far more evidence of a psychological war having been declared on the U.S. public (which was projected world wide) than there is of a terrorist war.
There are so many wed sites that have responded to the
"hollywood" production there is no point in me repeating it here.

There are several sites that deal with the development of the science of psycho-control and psycho-operatives. (because they arent Nazis it cant be bad, just shocking)

[donquijote]

"Do it well enough (and often enough), and advertising can make your customers drool."

<What's that Martha, I can't here for the ringing.>

It could have been on TV...

http://www.richardpage.com/about.html

Howdy Bader
Cute dog, ah?
And you don't even need the actual bell, but just a regular TV, which, of course, can get the ring from thousands of miles away!

Ah the beauty of capitalism...:confused:

<Howdy DonQ,
I was just joking about the hope after the shelter story which is pathetic in a world of abundance. Its one thing to provide some shelter for the homeless and another shelter from the Lion which is why the shelter was pathetic although the best those good hearted people could do.>

I bet you many of those "good hearted" people who gives charity wouldn't move a finger or even may move oppose any revolutionary. Charity is the aspirin for the dying patient...:confused:

<In the communist system which is closed conditioning was by a different method- direct with open/options closed. In the west
it is by media where political correctness pats the right conditioning on the back as repeticious as ringing the bell and
rubbishes anything more real or true that works against conditioning.
For Russia to become number one it needs to accept your post
contents about what totalitarian systems do with public minds
and start healing the nations minds who have been through the system and teaching the young ones how to think. I have given a
quote from U.S academic who claims the U.S. education system
teaches them so they can't think. With the U.S. going backwards
and Russia going forwards they should pass at a greater rate of knots.>

Most of the conditining in the West may take part via TV--positive enforcement--and fear of losing job, getting sick, etc--negative enforcement. You can learn some awesome tricks even without the fear used in totalitarian regimes. If you know how do the trick, why use the whip?

Look at this...

http://images.google...8&oe=UTF-8&sa=N

<Living Wage:
Any system based on Taxes is surrender to the Lion banking system. We can do better than something with good intentions like the Shelter for the homeless, same as living and universal wages based on tax. (still too depersonalising!)
KIng was right- lack of social vision (=conditioning) and shortsightedness (=blindness by conditioning).
Barbara Ehrenreich makes a mockery of the bell ringing chorus
"get a job" which has become very common since the free market
diatribe has been cut loose. She shows that a job isn't enough anymore. It might be considered more intelligent to say "get another life" so both of them can go out to work at the same time
since that is where we are heading.>

OK, coops it's the best option, but for those where falling outside it--we still need supracooperative projects (transportation, electricity, etc) and a State in its benign form--there can be a decent life, right?

<The shortcomings of animal testing is that the mental presumptions of the testers tend to find only proof of what the want to discover. The reason the dogs got excited when the owner came in was they were protesting about the stupid bell
and that stupid sadsack who everytime the bell rang mindlessly came in and fed them the same rubbish the owner knew better than to give at home.>

In the case of society our masters have come a long way from the bell to the TV. The dogs though still get excited...

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

[donquijote]

"Porn can sell anything. Porn plus an ad on the corner of every block can sell tits ... err I mean ICE to Eskimos..."

The Term for Today is:
MEDIA SATURATION

In the new concrete jungle, turf wars are fought between corporations. The spray paint tags are gone. In their place, gangsters from Madison Avenue tag every empty space with advertisements. No matter where your eye wanders, it can't escape their visual pollution. The environment in your mind is being polluted every day by the harmful matter of commercial exploitation.

Advertising is no longer a business of introducing potential consumers to goods and services. It's been transformed into a business that attempts to squeeze its way into your every waking moment and permeate your subconscious mind by keeping their images fixed in front of your eyes, and filling your ears with corporate slogans ALL THE TIME until it's absolutely impossible to not have opinions about their products. They want INSIDE. They want to stay in your thoughts long enough and often enough to alter how you think, what you value, and most importantly, what you do with your money. Their whole industry thrives on changing things that you don't think about into things that you feel that you can't live without. They have a lot more money than you do, but it's your money they need to keep them wealthy, and you give it to them. Whether you give it of your own free will is debatable.

They know your pleasure centers. They know how to coddle your ego. They know how to transform a simple pair of overpriced plastic shoes into something that, regardless of cost, you desire regardless of your financial means, and know how to train your peers to covet them. They turn a trip to a crappy fast food restaurant into an amusement park ride, and paint your banker as caring about your wellbeing more than your grandparents do. They want to train you to think that three months salary is a reasonable price for a trinket. They want to train you to associate a new sportscar with freedom, even though you'll need to work a second job to afford it. You're being trained like one of Pavlov's dogs to want what they tell you to want, using the same means he used: repetition... repetition... repetition...

Ding! Ding! Ding! Drool.

This is funny as hell...

http://www.negativep...org/pavlov.html

[donquijote]

<Just a further comment DonQ regards the messing with peoples minds through defying logic-disorienting-control by chaos:
the whole saga of Sept 11 is one of disorienting defying of logic
on just about everything.
All the explanations dont add up. There is far more evidence of a psychological war having been declared on the U.S. public (which was projected world wide) than there is of a terrorist war.
There are so many wed sites that have responded to the
"hollywood" production there is no point in me repeating it here.

There are several sites that deal with the development of the science of psycho-control and psycho-operatives. (because they arent Nazis it cant be bad, just shocking) >

"Do not worry, fellow Americans, Big Brother is watching you. Of course we only mean to protect you..."

What year is it, 2003? Never mind I thought it was 1984...

[donquijote]

Hey Bader, the debt creation rings a bell. Of course we recognize the lion and the jungle too...

We could give it many titles: "The History of the Lie," or "The Wheel of History Always Crushes the Poor," or "Same S***, Different Day"...

Bread and Circuses (Panem et Circenses)
Burton W. Bogardus