7545 replies to this topic

[donquijote]

<Do not call it humanism. It may become confused with secular humanism, also called humanism, and its adherents are called humanists, adjective: humanistic.

A godless, soulless pursuit that evolved out of the "man is an animal" concept and promoted by our social engineers and scientists meanwhile condemning all other faiths. >

Hi Pliny
The reason I call it "Humanism" is to emphasize that the human being should be served by the system, not the other way around, the way it is now. But I got no strong attachment to it. What you think we can call it?

Anyways I say like Shakespeare, "What's in a name?" It's the content what I have concentrated on...

[donquijote]

<I don-t debate evolution , I just slowly heading to the point saying that no Suw, no Unions or coops or any propaganda under label of education are going play any role in success of nature in fight with naked ape.
I applause to it because I see that naked ape surviving success is not success of humanity. >

Roaches will survive though. They don't play power games, or use the "lie" to dominate other roaches. Maybe they had some kind of revolution in the past.

[woj1@cyberonic.]

Still is not answer question how nudity help hunting ape to survive. One theory indicates that before he became a hunting ape the original ground ape that left the forests went through a long phase as an aquatic ape. He is envisaged as moving to the tropical see shores in search for food. It is argued that he had lost his hair like other mammals that returned to the sea. This explains why we are so nimble in water today, while our closest living relatives the chimpanzees are so helpless and quickly drown. Another suggestion an extension of sexual signaling. The female naked ape was more sexually attractive to male. The most commonly held explanation of hairless condition is evolved as a cooling system. The combination of reduced hair, increased sweat glands and the fatty layer under the skin appears to give our hard working ancestors what they needed in hunting.
Vertical, hunting weapon toting, territorial, neotenous, brainy Naked Ape, a primate by ancestory and carnivore by adoption ready to conquer the world.
How does sexual behavior help us to survive?
There is much more intense sexual activity is in our own species than in any other primates. The primates female don

[visitoronline]

What would it take for Russia to be #1?
In my humble opinion, probably for the present no.# 1 to become number 2. Materialisic possesions doesn't necessarily make a nation number one. I believe it's one propensity towards the things that are more substantial, like morality and the like.

[donquijote]

<In my humble opinion, probably for the present no.# 1 to become number 2. Materialisic possesions doesn't necessarily make a nation number one. I believe it's one propensity towards the things that are more substantial, like morality and the like. >

Howdy Visitor
Thank you for your comments. We are speaking about the same #1 you are: Substantial things like morality. Militarily, we already know who it is...

Anyway here's #1 anyone would feel proud of...

Finland 'least corrupt country in the world'

BERLIN, Germany -- Finland is perceived as the world's least corrupt country in a new survey that rates Nigeria as the worst offender.

Transparency International lists 90 countries in its annual corruption index, and describes corruption as "a universal cancer" which hampers political stability and foreign investment in developing countries.

Nine of the 12 "cleanest" nations are in Europe - in descending order: Finland (1), Denmark (2), Sweden (4), Iceland (6), Norway (7), Netherlands (9), United Kingdom (10), Luxembourg (11) and Switzerland (12).

*The same countries I propose;)*

http://www.cnn.com/2...any.corruption/

[donquijote]

We appreciate the effort of the turkey to stop the SUV head-on. If
they are wrong we don't need violence...

Turkey vs. SUV
FRANK W. BLANCHARD, Chief
Yantic Fire Engine Co. #1

This story originally ran in April, and was among the most popular of
the year. Its being reposted as training material in the event of
holiday accidents. Have a Safe Thanksgiving from everyone at
Firehouse!

Members of the Yantic Fire Engine Co # 1 in Connecticut responded to
Interstate 395 southbound on Saturday, March 29, 2003, for a person
with a head injury.

Upon arrival the crew noticed the driver of the SUV had struck a large
wild turkey. Remarkably the driver sustained only minor cuts to his
face, he was transported to the hospital.

Unfortunately the wild turkey met his demise.

http://cms.firehouse...onId=45&id=8398

[donquijote]

The price of looking "cool"...

In their attempt to appear youthful and hip, SUV owners have filled
the American highways with vehicles that exact a distinctly human
cost, frequently killing innocent drivers who would have survived a
collision with a lesser vehicle. Bradsher quotes auto execs who
concede that the self-centered lifestyle of SUV buyers is apparent in
"their willingness to endanger other motorists so as to achieve small
improvements in their personal safety."

http://www.interesti...es/interesting-
people/200301/msg00049.html

Yet the lion is fed to keep the jungle an scary place and force the
little animals into ever bigger defensive weapons. Evolution gone
wrong or the Law of the Jungle?

An opinion...

Dear Dave,

I found this story amazing. Not because the conclusions are surprising
-- anyone who's spent any time on an American freeway in a
normal-sized
car lives in terror of SUVs -- but that the auto industry actually
cops
to feeding the beast.

Feel free to pass to the list if you'd like.

All best,
Denise

[Bader]

But against the SUV!

Pliny: no I havent been to Disney world. Not exactly like creating life forms on a desert planet.
Your interpretation of Humanism I alluded to way back when I
told DonQ I wasnt happy with that label, for the same reason.

Its news to me that most people know that space aliens came down and played with DNA to develop man.
A Danish conman by the name of Van Danikin made a packet
selling books along that line until he went too far and got caught out- exposed as a hoax about thirty years go. He waited a generation then republished for a new bunch of buyers in recent times.

DonQ: regards systems should be serving people why not use the label democracy instead of humanism?
Thanks for the ratings on the nations, I noted the British are ahead of the Slavs.

WOJ: Given the little time alleged for man to wrestle with the environmental and social problems before his demise as a
species and that according to the law of nature as expounded by the theory of evolution that it takes millions of years to adapt to a new environment, evolution can only promise us doom.
Some say we dont have a hundred years.
Little wonder then the Biodiversity Treaty calls for the holocaust of billions of souls in order to prevent the natural holocaust of us all.
I think it is fair then to say that the religion of evolution (worship of nature) could be a major contributor to this perspective and
diabolical formula for survival and thus could be judged the most dangerous in the history of the man.

Visitoronline: agreed its not materialgreed.

[Pliny]

Man's struggle has in the past been against the environment. He has conquered that to a degree. Of course cataclysmic events do humble him at times but for the most part he is master of his world.

He does need to know how to live with himself if he is going to continue. Your discussion here is mainly about that, I think. How can man live in harmony with himself and his environment, and what is the most humane form of social governance? Is this correct?

We cannot build a perfect society. The society of man will always contain death which will never be eliminated. If we were to achieve immortality we would no longer be men. The perfection of man by definition would exclude death. Perhaps we will evolve and rise above even this but that is for a distant future. In the meantime we must include our weaknesses in our construction of civilization and our various societies.

As certainly as death there is evil amongst us. We are like the wind trying to blow out it's fire but our attempts cause it to spread further. We know that to master something we must understand it. We must understand evil in order to master it.
The lion is not evil in the jungle and even serves a worthwhile purpose. The lion you describe in society appears to me to be an evil you feel must be eradicated. Human traits of aggressiveness, hatred, greed, selfishness, must be understood before they can be tamed by anyone and only within themselves, they may find it difficult to understand those traits in others for motives and purposes are not easily observable, only the actions are obvious.
The actions upon inspection may reveal motives or purposes and thus the achievement of understanding.

Most of what is considered greed, selfishness, hatred, etc., the bad traits of man are his baser instincts for survival and exist in all of us to a degree. We need to understand them within ourselves before we can build a workable social system. The desires of each individual vary and in some, negative traits are deemed to be more necessary. It may be because of the environment, education but it also may be the strength of the trait that is inherent in the individual. This may be your lion in society. The problem is not in the fact that he exists or operates in society, the problem is in recognizing him and then getting him to better understand how to control himself.

I may not agree with violence but I would never smother the "potential" in an individual to become violent. It may one day save his life or another's life or his country or the world. He may never need to call upon that potential but for his and all our safety he must have that potential. Obviously, there are the few who cannot have that freedom and if they cannot learn that they are in control of themselves for mental or other reasons it needs to be controlled externally.

The basic concept I am stating here is that individuals will differ as to how society should be run and we must not allow ourselves to be smothered by those who may think they "know best" for all of us.
Democracy definitely has it's flaws but it doesn't crush the individual and if everyone were sane and rational anarchy would probably be the best government. Some people may be suited to co-ops, some to something with more individuality, some to the domination of others or to be dominated.

We will never eliminate pain, suffering and death until we evolve
further for these are the lot of man. Can the State relieve pain? Eliminate suffering? Eradicate death? No, not unless it is causing them. Pain, suffering and death must be viewed as part of the harmony of living and life. Because the lion represents pain and suffering to others does not mean he needs to be eliminated. He too, lives by the same rules as all of us in nature and if he strays from those rules he perishes, only earlier than he perhaps should have, as do we all.

The State only interferes with the natural harmony of things, such as sustaining the lion beyond his time and so the State should not interfere in the natural course of one's life unless it is a life of destruction and criminality.

[Pliny]

>>>Its news to me that most people know that space aliens came down and played with DNA to develop man. <<<

Just funnin' there, but as plausible a theory as "evolution".

Your answer to WOJ I found interesting and also quite plausible.

[Bader]

"As a result of the present Euclidean education system the synthesis dominant synthesis-analysis cycle, associated with normal brain function, is reversed so that thinking becomes analysis dominant.
............................................................................................
Programming the central nervous system to operate in
reverse, so that thinking becomes analysis instead of synthesis dominant, causes mental and behavioural disorder.
..............................................................................................

This mental disorder manifests in confused and irrational thinking
loss of selfworth (1), lack of purpose and motivation, lack of responsibilkity, selfishness and greed, as well as a lack of moral fibre and sense od fair play. It leads to a self-centred and manipulative personality.

For the first couple of year of life, before programming with Euclidean concepts, a childs brain function is normal.

With the introduction of Euclidean thinking, (2) handed down from parents and the education system, this normal function is gradually changed to an analysis-dominant thinking pattern. As
a result a child's curiosity, inventiveness and ability to learn new skills wanes. This is why a child around the age of 2-4 years is able to learn two or three languages with far greater ease than the adolescent who starts these languages later in life. In adults where Euclidean thinking is more pronounced the ability to
learn new skills and to think creatively is even more restricted.
Associated with this trend there is a loss of ability for critical evaluation with the result that thinking becomes more a question of what to think rather than one of how to think.

Locked into an analysis-dominant thinking pattern, the normal development of the mind, which culminates in objective, spiritually-centred, five dimensional consciousness, is inhibited.
Unable to embrace the spiritual aspect of reality, as a result, we are limited to thinking in terms of an inferior, four dimensional
mental state where we are forced to live in a world of false beliefs and illusions, out of touch with reality."

(1) is closely linked to loss of cultural heritage, ethnic identity and traditional values based on generations of practical experience.

(2) Euclidean thinking is linked to the materialistc relativism of science and the philosophy of self-centred, atheistic humanism
which has gained ascendency in the 20th century.

Glossary
Euclidean Thinking: a static thinking pattern which interfered with the natural development of th mind; the type of thinking associated with modern education in industrialised countries; a
type of thinking that is expressed in the philosophies of materialism, atheism and humanism; a type of thinking that limits the individual to four dimensional consciousness.

humanism: a philosophy based on the (false) belief that (subjective) human values are of primary importance in respect to human wellbeing; a philosophy based on the atheistic view that mankind is the highest authority in the Universe; a philosophy that is closely associated with the philosophy of materialistis
science, based on Einstein's materialistic model of the Universe, and responsible for the decline of the West.

"Five Dimensional Man and the New Cosmic Civilisation"
Brian St Clair Corcoran

[woj1@cyberonic.]

Donq; You too long walk in the sun without turban when you say; *Nine of the 12 "cleanest" nations are in Europe - in descending order: Finland (1), Denmark (2), Sweden (4), Iceland (6), Norway (7), Netherlands (9), United Kingdom (10), Luxembourg (11) and Switzerland (12). *

How you can call Finland clean country when it grows as a auctioneer of bribes between East and West and now sings very thin.
Island is US Carrier.
Denmark shelter for Chechen terrorists, and join Netherlands and UK colonists countries.
To call

[woj1@cyberonic.]

Dong; *Roaches will survive though. They don't play power games, or use the "lie" to dominate other roaches. Maybe they had some kind of revolution in the past. *


I don

[woj1@cyberonic.]

Bader; *humanism: a philosophy based on the (false) belief that (subjective) human values are of primary importance in respect to human wellbeing; a philosophy based on the atheistic view that mankind is the highest authority in the Universe; a philosophy that is closely associated with the philosophy of materialistis
science, based on Einstein's materialistic model of the Universe, and responsible for the decline of the West.*

Zoological interpretation of human evolution is not in contradiction with idealism or materialism . Idealism states that idea (God) created matter, materialism that idea ( God) was result of matter.
Zoological interpretation of human evolution is not in contradiction with many religion views. Zoological interpretation of human evolution is for sure with contradiction of Islam, and is not decided by Catholics because, Catholic Church recognizes evolution and Bible simultaneously.-
I know nothing about Judaism.

Zoological interpretation of human evolution is not putting mankind to the highest authority in the Universe, rather in contrary, is setting evolution / Nature in a control of Universe.
When in 1543 Copernic publishes *Of the Revolution of Celeste Bodies* , he as a priest himself doesn

[Pliny]

Interesting post.

Of course once grade school is started we are fed all our information and memory becomes the key to success. After 12 years we no longer do our own observations but wait for the data input from external sources. This explains an inability in the youth of today to work, plus the fact that they are not allowed to work - child labor laws, you know. It also explains why a person with a grade three education can be successful in life, although less likely today than a few decades ago.

The memory based education also explains the phenomenal success of the Chinese in western educational systems. Their written language is based on thousands of characters that must be committed to memory. They develop an ability to think in abstractions, hence their success in maths and sciences.

On humanism - were those your inserts in brackets? Humanism is the way of our social scientists and they are fast tracking us to hell. Their primary premises are incorrect but they have asserted them right, the first assumption that is wrong is, that man is an animal. Ever since they have taken that tack our understanding of ourselves has been retarded and no progress in the humanities has been made.

[woj1@cyberonic.]

Donq;
*Woj, before I ask you to explain the "hypocrite" part?*

Now I see that Pliny writes you an answer;
*Of course once grade school is started we are fed all our information and memory becomes the key to success. *
So when you read

[donquijote]

Hey, Woj, you are the expert evolutionist here. This guy claims that Nature's force is that of competition, and in so doing he defends capitalism, ie. America. But there are other forces at play in Nature...

I say...
> > I have a hard time telling of another animal who hates Nature so much.
> > Other species have learned to live with it, but we sure are
> > relentlessly assaulting the bounty of Nature, almost with a passion...
>

tim@stonerise.com (Tim) wrote
> All animals hate nature. Otherwise, they'd happily plant seeds and
> wouldn't eat, and would be happy to die, so as to feed another
> generation. Most animals fight for survival, many fight for
> territory, many fight for sport, and some lifeforms are even
> victorious by not appearing to fight at all. Every animal that is
> remotely sentient will always want more than it has -- greed and envy
> are natural instincts throughout the wild kingdom.

I say...
Thank you for that interesting if gloomy picture of Nature. Actually
it's so gloomy that now I can start to rationalize the behavior toward
the environment of the most powerful nation on Earth and even
Terrorism, not as something inherently evil, but just another
manifestation of the workings of Nature. The Law of the Jungle. And
their victims were going to die anyway sooner or later, so what's the
point of stressing out over such trifles? Don't worry, be happy!

By the way, do you know why God hurled the Asteroid to the dinosaurs?
Yeah man, the dinosaurs refused to *evolve*, another law of Nature.
And you know another law of Nature, besides competition? Yeah right,
*cooperation*, which though it wouldn't make you eternal, it can
expand your life considerably, and perhaps more importantly, it can
make it better, much better...

EVOLVE OR ELSE!

Once upon a time lived a race of dinosaurs whose violence and appetite
alarmed everybody... One day a Little Ant, tired of feeling stepped
upon, and worried about her cooperative enterprise, came up to the
Americanus Raptor--the biggest dinosaur of them all--and asked: "Why
you always have to protect the right of the dinosaurs, who do nothing
but eat everything in their path? Why don't the little animals get a
fair share of this world?" Then the dinosaur, who had a bad temper,
replied: "Bigger is better, so get lost..."

The Little Ant, then, gathered the whole cooperative and said:
"Comrades, our world is being threatened by the dinosaurs, so..." And
at that precise moment the Earth was hit by a big ball of fire,
destroying all but the small animals...

"Competition, Cooperation or Both?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are we to learn something from evolution? Well, it would probably be
that both Competition and Cooperation are necessary... Thus only a
balance of the two (which neither communism nor capitalism offers) can
constitute a stable political system... This interesting article
illustrates the point...

Spectrum Five: Competition vs. Cooperation

Summary
Humans, like all animals, form cooperative groups to compete for
limited
resources. All life is ultimately competitive, because the natural
tendency of any population is to explode, although it is kept in check
by the limited food supply (and other factors). Because there are more
animals than food, animals must compete to survive. In situations
where
the food supply is somehow sufficient, deadly competition falls.
Liberals therefore advocate the creation of a sustainable economy,
where
the population is kept constant (through birth control) and resources
are used no faster than they can be replaced. The result will be a
more
cooperative and civil society.

http://webspawner.co...rs/donquijote14

[donquijote]

<DonQ: regards systems should be serving people why not use the label democracy instead of humanism?>

Howdy Bader
Democracy, real democracy is our goal, BUT regrettably the name is as burned out as communism. The reason I don't worry too much about the word humanism (my main complain is that it is too bland) is that I got better names. Proven directly with the Proles, I use names they use in everyday life. In other words I satirize and make fun of politics to the point that the Foxes will never want to hide behind it to run the jungle again. That's my secret weapon. At that point only democracy--government of the little people--will remain.

[donquijote]

<Man's struggle has in the past been against the environment. He has conquered that to a degree. Of course cataclysmic events do humble him at times but for the most part he is master of his world.

He does need to know how to live with himself if he is going to continue. Your discussion here is mainly about that, I think. How can man live in harmony with himself and his environment, and what is the most humane form of social governance? Is this correct?

We cannot build a perfect society. The society of man will always contain death which will never be eliminated. If we were to achieve immortality we would no longer be men. The perfection of man by definition would exclude death. Perhaps we will evolve and rise above even this but that is for a distant future. In the meantime we must include our weaknesses in our construction of civilization and our various societies.>

Howdy Pliny
Very beautiful analysis of our options. We got basically two options: Evolve or Die. True, we may never conquer death--as it may not even be desirable--but we may make the passing through life far more pleasurable. Life is worth living when you don't live in fear. And the lion is fear too...

This is what I express in these thoughts...

Will the Lion (the lie, power, greed, individualism, violence, fanatism...) or the Monkey (the truth, intelligence, unselfishness, partnership, nonviolence, enlightenment...) win? The lion wins when we fear, and we win when we face the beast. And there lies the difference between extinction and Earthly Paradise. No wonder the pictures of Paradise have a tamed lion...

Humanity at the Crossroads

Source: book 'You Are Being Lied To'; article 'Will the Real Human Please Stand Up?' by Riane Eisler. Fragments.

Today the mix of the dominator model and advanced technology become increasingly unsustainable, the blade is the nuclear bomb and/or biological warfare and terrorism [written before Sept. 11!]. Increasingly advanced technologies in the service of a dominator ethos threaten our natural habitat, as well as that of most species with whom we share our planet.

Regions ranging from the former Soviet Union to countries is Asia, Africa and Latin America are being forced into a replay of the robber-baron days of early capitalism.

In sum, the outcome of the tension between the partnership and dominator models as two basic human possibilities is far from settled. We are now at what scientists call a bifurcation point, where there are two very different scenarios for out future.

One is 'dominator system breakdown': the unsustainable future of high technology guided by the dominator model [the Lion]. This is where high technology in service of the domination of nature despoils and pollutes our natural habitat. It is a future where advanced technologies will be used not to free our human potentials, but to more effectively control and dominate. And ultimately, it is a future of environmental, nuclear, or biological holocaust.

The other scenario is 'breakthrough to partnership': the sustainable future of a world primarily orienting to the partnership model [for the benefit of all species]. Here advanced technologies are developed and used in ways that promote environmental balance and the realization of our species' great untapped potentials. International regulations ensure corporate accountability to workers, communities and natural habitats. [I'd add here the promotion of cooperatives as an option to counterbalance corporations.] New economic institutions and rules recognize the value of the work of caring and caregiving, and discourage violence, exploitation, and the despoliation of nature.

[woj1@cyberonic.]

Improvement in sexuality as face to face contact, extremely long penis when compare with other species; appetitive and consummatory pattern serves pair formation elsewhere virtually unknown. In most other pair species offspring become sexual rivals and they are driven out. But it would make suffer all male hunting cooperative groups. When young females go too far without pair formation might find itself pregnant and heading straight towards a parental situation with no partner. Painful hymen would be a partial brake before the final step. The development pair bond is not absolutely demanded monogamy. If violent hunting would result that adult male becoming scarcer than females, it would be tendency to form bond with more than one female. All working against it would be economic pressure of maintain the larger family group with all offspring. We can at any rate today sum up that main stream character is long term monogamous mating. The enlarged brain of cooperative hunter began to busy itself with technological improvements. Moved to town and cities. From axe age to space age. But behind of fa?ade city is the same naked ape. Only hunting- is working; hunting grounds- place of business, mate